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Author Topic: NEC NC900 IMS
Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted 08-14-2019 01:55 PM      Profile for Richard May   Email Richard May   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have 4 NEC NC900 projectors with IMS 1000's. The software and firmware have never been updated since install in 2014. No real problem in the 5 years. It looks like we finally lost an IMS. I'll be putting in an IMS 2000 in it's place. Does the projector SW or FW need to be upgraded for this IMS?

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 08-14-2019 04:20 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know of any formal recommendation on that score, but my gut feeling is that a five-year gap in software/firmware versions between a projector/ICP and IMS carries the risk of causing some unpredictable behavior. I'd suggest asking the tech who installs your 2000s to update the projectors and ICPs to the current version while (s)he's at it. It'll only take about 15 minutes per projector.

The current ICP version (4.54) contains a modification that substantially reduces the risk of dead pixels, and a bug fix for subtitle rendering that can be quite a significant bug if you play subtitled foreign language movies, so it's worth doing.

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Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted 08-14-2019 04:37 PM      Profile for Richard May   Email Richard May   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Leo. I just worry about updating when we have had ZERO issues for 5 years on this version.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 08-14-2019 06:40 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I hear you about not fixing what ain't broke. You could always try installing the IMS2000 into the untouched projector and seeing what happens. I suspect that if you do run into any issues that NEC don't immediately recognize and ask for their help over them, though, the first thing they will ask you to do is to send them a log, and the second will be to update the software and firmware bundle to the current version.

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Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted 08-14-2019 06:50 PM      Profile for Richard May   Email Richard May   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yep. That's what we'll do and see what happens. Thanks Leo.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 08-14-2019 07:17 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What about your lamp running times? NEC introduced software upgrades for their powersupplies that improve lamp life. I don't know of any major issues with NC900 updates, admittedly I stopped at 4.219 or so, which is also not the most current. But I don't think much happened after 4.218 or so anyway...

Since you're on IMS, Enigma 1.8 should be no concern for you. Otherwise, you would have known already...

- Carsten

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-15-2019 06:43 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually there was a T.I. upgrade at 4.310 when ICP went to 4.5. The current projector firmware is 4.312. No you won't need to upgrade for it to work, but it may help your lamp life considerably, a lot was done for lamps in both the ballast firmware and fan controler over the last five years. Especially when they went to version 2 lamps.

Those running 4.219 are at T.I. 4.2, obviously...

Updates should be done at a minimum once a year and twice a year preferably. Auto update has been 100% fool proof and you can even do it remotely if your locations have remote access. I literally have not done any updates on site in going on a four years. Also, it's not that something isn't broke, it's about increasing reliability and every once in a blue moon making your equipment do cool new things it couldn't do before the update, like actually getting 3000 lamp hours!! It take less then ten minutes to update a projector people!
If you DO update, be sure to only do it with the latest version of DCC because you may actully break things updating to a newer version of firmware with an older version of DCC. Just ask me about that some time!

Mark

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 08-15-2019 07:50 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The decision as to whether or not (and if so, when) to install software/firmware updates into projectors and servers can be a difficult one, and should always involve reading the release notes to establish what the update is supposed to do, followed by a risk/benefit analysis. In rough terms, this goes as follows:

Benefits
  • Manufacturers will often require the machine to be running the current release version before being willing to assist with troubleshooting. Therefore, keeping machines current avoids the need to have to do the updating under pressure and while trying to fix a bigger problem.
  • The update can fix bugs that are affecting your operation.
  • The update can improve efficiency and reliability (e.g. NEC 900 updates improving lamp life, or ICP 4.5 putting the DMD mirrors at rest in a position that exposes them to less heat).
  • The update can add support for new technical standards, e.g. SMPTE DCPs.
  • The update can add new features that can benefit your operation (e.g. the ability to import and export automation cues in DSS 4.9).
Disadvantages
  • The updating process itself can go wrong, resulting in an unstable or even, in the worst case scenario, a bricked system. This is especially a risk if it is not on a UPS.
  • The update can change the behavior of the system (e.g. rearrange buttons on a web UI) that imposes a learning curve on the end user, or even the tech.
  • The update can introduce new bugs (e.g. Barco B series, 2.54 breaking the Smart Maintenance function).
  • The update can break the reliable interaction between the machine being updated and others it has to interact with. I experienced this with an IMS3000 and a Lumagen scaler a few months back, and in the end the only way we could make the system reliable again was to downgrade the IMS to its previous version.
I would always want to establish which of these potential pros and cons applies to an individual update scenario, and then discuss with the end user if and when to do it.

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Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2713
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 08-15-2019 11:28 AM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To be honest one of the biggest disadvantages here is what Leo mentioned: the manufacturer won't support you if you are not on the latest firmware.

I see the 'if ain't broke, don't fix it' but that is not a 100% safe situation either.

What I don't like is just updating for the sake of doing it: integrators should 'beta test' the new firmware/software themselves a bit or at least give it some months before going out on the field and update. Unless there is a major fix implemented, see Enigma 1.8 as Carsten mentioned.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

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From: Music City
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 - posted 08-15-2019 02:00 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Leo Enticknap
The decision as to whether or not (and if so, when) to install software/firmware updates into projectors and servers can be a difficult one, and should always involve reading the release notes to establish what the update is supposed to do, followed by a risk/benefit analysis.
I could not disagree more with that perspective. Until recently, you could be assured that there was suffucuent viable updating on a yearly basis and in checking on a twice yearly basis. Especially with the NC900C. I had one site in Ogden, UT that ran their GDC severs on Ver 7.8 Final until hell froze over when one day they had to be able to play SMPTE content. So we updated all their servers in a rather large one time jump to the latest 8.XX, what ever it was at the time. Before this and like the 330 others I tend to, they never had one GDC problem over a 6 year span. Since the jump to 8.XX this site has since then seen multiple IMB failures, more than one on some screens, and one motherboard failure. While all the other sites I tend to... all 330 of them... recieved at least twice yearly incremental updates. None of those sites have had any issues with GDC except normal drive replacement.

And yes, the manufacturers generally won't support you until you have run the latest upgrade to see if that fix the issue you are having.

No it ain't necessarily broke, but keeping up with the Smith's may keep yours from breaking too.

Go figure....

Mark

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Marco Giustini
Film God

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From: Reading, UK
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 - posted 08-15-2019 05:24 PM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Leo is not suggesting they shouldn't update. He's suggesting caution in doing it. I agree with that.

You can quote your magic NEC software fixing motherboard and HDD failures but we all know how many buggy software packages have been released over the years by all manufacturers.

Clearly staying on a non-SMPTE compliant version for a long time without considering the consequences is not wise and it's not what Leo suggested.

The 'solution' lives in the middle as it's often the case.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 08-15-2019 08:01 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Certain GDC 8.XX packages had some bugs in them, but overall very little and none that cause loss of shows in 2D or 3-D. None in NEC that I can remember once they got into the Auto-Update versions. I have never had one update stall, not load or function improperly on reboot. Never had any enigma issues either, even befoe the update to that. The only mishap I have had working on NEC's is one ICP died changing the clock battery change out, and they are famous for flipping the eyes on Real-D systems after update... sometimes. I also did one with a too old version of DCC and ended up with an IP of 0.0.0.0.

Mark

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Stephan Shelley
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 854
From: castro valley, CA, usa
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted 08-15-2019 08:45 PM      Profile for Stephan Shelley   Email Stephan Shelley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That is not true Mark. There was a build of 8 for the G2 IMB that sometimes would trash the audio decoder in the IMB on upgrade. The first five I upgrade without issue the next 4 did. Had a whole site down till GDC shipped replacement IMB. That build was removed from the FTP site. A bit of work to install the replacement IMBs. Having to roll the server back to an non DCI version so you can change the serial to match the new IMB and then do the incremental upgrades to mach the IMB. Takes some time.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 08-16-2019 08:09 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I had one site in Ogden, UT that ran their GDC severs on Ver 7.8 Final until hell froze over when one day they had to be able to play SMPTE content. So we updated all their servers in a rather large one time jump to the latest 8.XX, what ever it was at the time. Before this and like the 330 others I tend to, they never had one GDC problem over a 6 year span. Since the jump to 8.XX this site has since then seen multiple IMB failures, more than one on some screens, and one motherboard failure.
Stories like this are precisely why Richard and many others prefer to take the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach to software and firmware updating.

My position is that neither "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" (because, as you point out, eventually something will break from lack of maintenance), nor keeping up with the Smiths is the most effective approach.

Software and firmware updating for projectors and servers is a bit like spinal surgery: you're doing it for the benefits, but there are also significant risks involved. Therefore, unless the update is to fix a mission critical bug (Enigma 18.4 would be the classic example) and the OEM is advising its immediate installation, regardless of any other circumstances, I would always wait at least 2-4 weeks from publication, to see if any reports of new bugs surface. Barco B series 2.54 and IMS2000 2.8.22 are examples of this - bug reports did surface within a couple of weeks, and these versions were withdrawn.

Otherwise, I agree that leaving it 4-5 years between updates is likely asking for trouble, hence my reply to the initial posting, that I suspect that having an IMS in a projector with a five-year gap in the software/firmware versions between the two carries the high risk of some unusual and erratic s*** going on. However, if I see an update for a machine that I last updated a month ago, and the release notes indicate that there is nothing in the update that is relevant to the operation of the site in question, then why eat the risk, for no reward?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-16-2019 09:56 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I trust some companies more than others on software releases. Some clearly push them out too early without a proper Beta. Christie is a bit notorious for pushing out an update and within 2-weeks pulling it back.

It's no secret that I beta test some software (for various companies) and some definitely do a more thorough approach of vetting the software before sending it out to the world.

So, if it isn't a software I've beta tested...I tend to hold off at least a month before pushing it out. The only exception is on new-builds. I run the latest-greatest as my own personal beta. If something doesn't work on a new installation, the finger pointing goes right back to the manufacturer. Furthermore, on new equipment, there may be a piece of hardware that ONLY runs on a later version of software.

For the record, I think I've had ALL updates hang at some point. As for NEC, Mark...just had it happen on an NC900. I think it was a bad software file because I went to the next lower version (that had the same file for the ICP) and it went without incident.

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