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Author Topic: Robert Redford and Movie Palaces
Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 10-09-2001 08:51 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was watching PBS the other night. They were running a program about Robert Redford and his Sundance Film Festival. Here is one notable note from that program:

Robert Redford made a comparison of the grand ole 1 and 2 large screen movie palaces of yesteryear as opposed to todays mass media entertainment megaplexes.

Anyhow, he did come out and say that the entire movie going experience is lost with the mass market multiplexes. He seemed to yearn and reminence about the total package of seeing an excellent presentation in a grand ole palace!

It is great and interesting that there is a actor/director who is concerned about quality presentation~THANK YOU ROBERT REDFORD!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-10-2001 07:47 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree that seeing a well-presented movie in a "classic" theatre like the El Capitan, Egyptian, or Chinese in Hollywood is a wonderful experience. But good presentation quality is a matter of "Film Done Right", regardless of whether it is an "entertainment megaplex" or a "grand ole palace". IMHO. the "total package of seeing an excellent presentation" often depends more on the PEOPLE, than the BUILDING.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Bob Maar
(Maar stands for Maartini)


Posts: 28608
From: New York City & Newport, RI
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 10-10-2001 01:00 PM      Profile for Bob Maar   Author's Homepage   Email Bob Maar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think that the experience of going to an atmospheric theatre where the presentation revolved around the picture on the screen was a far better experience than attending a modern day multiplex.

The difference as I perceive it is in the presentation on the screen as well as the quiet dignity of the of the staff and manners of the patrons.

There were no game rooms, no hot dogs of pop corn shrimp taco's with cheese.

There was Popcorn,drinks and candy. The smell of the popcorn was part of the experience.

The auditoriums were well lit with manificent curtains either center draw or austrian shade. A scrim curtain was located directly behind the main and the presentation would begin on this curtain. Soft chamber type music filled your ears and set your mood. Saturdays were great you would get a short subject, a cartoon, a serial and a feature.

Today you enter and slides are on the screen and acid rock or rap music is being played loudly. Then you move into rolling stock advertisments, into five or six trailers and into the main feature.

It's not the same but it does help if "film is done right".

My two cents..


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Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-10-2001 01:57 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bob, [It's good to have you back here posting regularly again!]

I agree with you 100 percent. Sometimes I wish I'd been around to see movies in some of the older theatres when they were at their peak. The only movie I've ever seen in a single-screen theatre was "E.T." in 1982 at the West Theatre in Cedartown, GA (my first movie seen in a theatre). It would really have been interesting if a presentation quality review system like the one I use on my site has been used back in the days of these older, larger theatres with one screen to see if presentations were indeed of better quality back then.

Can some of the older people here share some comments on this matter? Back in the 1950s, 60s, and early 70s, when one-screen theatres were the norm, was the average presentation better than the average presentation seen in modern multiplex theatres, or vice versa? Many presentations these days are plagued by misframing (flat films), alignment/aperture problems, insufficient or nonuniform brightness problems, and sound problems. Did these problems occur as frequently in the "good old days"?

About the "acid rock and rap" music being played before movies: The problem these days is that the music being thrown at the audience is new music, and most of the new pop/rock music is quite awful. I have heard some great songs before movies, but that tended to be when older songs were played which appeared on some movie soundtrack being pushed by the music program. 50s and 60s rock is my favorite category.

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Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site


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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 10-10-2001 02:31 PM      Profile for Jesse Skeen   Email Jesse Skeen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree that the 'megaplex' isn't the same as the old movie 'palace'. I've seen some megaplexes that have a couple nice big auditoriums with around 300 seats, but then they'll also have small 100-or-so-seat theaters with screens not much bigger than ones some people have in their living rooms. While presentation on these can certainly still be good when done right, if it's not much better than what you can get at home then why bother going out?
While I don't know how the prices of yesteryear compared to what other things cost at the same time, I think the prices most theaters charge today is simply too much for what the customers are getting. I'd pay $9 to see a REALLY good, big-budget epic movie on a BIG screen with 70mm projection, but paying $9 to see something like "Corky Romano" in one of the smaller auditoriums on a small screen in 35mm just doesn't seem worth it when I can see it at home for less with an almost-as-good presentation. Add to that the ads and crap the theater throws at you, and the annoying customers (which aren't the fault of the theater, but do drive customers away) and you have to ask "why bother?"
There's been a lot of movies I've seen in the smaller multiplex auditoriums that made me think "That would've been good on a BIG screen." I still think bringing back the BIG screens is what it's going to take to get more people back in the theaters.

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-10-2001 02:54 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Evans, Overall the presentation was better during the late 60s early 70s, but there were different distractions. Cue marks were often huge and/or multiple cued. Even good theatres often had problems with these and with reel-end dirt. Prints moved around the country, and until "Billy Jack" new prints were rare in smaller markets. Some projectionists attempted to clean prints by hand, but their efforts only gave marginal improvement or just spread around the oil blotches from leaky projectors used earlier in the release.

Sound was not true to life, and the sound of a movie filtering into a lobby and echoing was part of the experience. Most theatres had some members of the audience smoking, which caused the projection beam to be visible. Seats were sometimes great, I remember the plush seats in Montreal theatres being especially so, but often during that period the seats in smaller towns were ancient and uncomfortable. Some people would come to the movies with their own cushions. Odors could be interesting before deodorants. Perfumes and sometimes the smell of farmer John's clothes mixed with the smell of B.O.. Cigar and pipe smoke weren't uncommon.

As a kid, I remember seeing the dirt increase on films and then hearing the "whack!" that meant the end of the reel. Often the arc was unstable for a minute or two after a changeover or the picture would have a different look.

It could be very difficult in the older theatres to maintain the "suspension of disbelief" that marks a good presentation.
There was often a lot going on with customers getting up and sitting down, ushers patrolling, babies and kids crying, trains going by, or sounds from the lobby drifting into the auditorium. If a plot weakened, the clock, curtains, and wall decorations could become distractions as well.

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Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-10-2001 03:33 PM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to agree whole heartedly with John on this one. It is the people. There is a multiplex here that is run 6 out of 7 days of the week by the two most reputable and caring projectionists in the city. Seeing movies there is a dream. On the other side of the coin, there are two old theaters here one, the Majestic, was originally a vaudeville theater and opened in 1908. The other, The Orpheum, is a beautiful old motion picture palace that was built in the heyday of movie going. The Majestic has a horrible projection set-up, the screen and projection booth/projectors are on opposing angles, making sharp focus over the whole screen impossible. The employees there don't even seem to try to get the focus, or the aspect ratio, right. The Orpheum has a nice projections set-up, but again the employees don't really care a bit about presentation. The focus is poor and often at least a bit mis-framed. If a projectionist, or "manager", as they're called at non-union houses, would care to watch the first couple of minutes of a film, then presentation would be better by leaps and bounds. I admit that I love the experience of going to an old single screen palace, but I would, and often do, trade that for a properly presented film at a multiplex.


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-10-2001 05:33 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
While I agree with the sentiments of everybody in this thread, how can you REALLY enjoy a movie at the Mann Chinese in Hollywood? Sure, the building is awesome and the auditorium is magnificent. But the screen isn't quite proportional to how big the auditorium is (re: it could be bigger) and the place is an acoustic hellhole. Just because the place is wired with Monster Cable™ that is thicker than your leg doesn't mean it sounds good. I suppose if you like crap you will enjoy it, but in my opinion picture and sound quality should ALWAYS and WITHOUT EXCEPTION come first over the niceties of a lavishly decorated auditorium and whatnot.

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 10-10-2001 08:18 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Up until the late 1980s early 1990s most of the first run theaters in Tucson were very large 1 and 2 screen theaters. The El-Dorado and Catalina are now owned by Cineplex and were torn down and built into multiplexes. The Buena Vista is closed and the building I think is owned by Century Theaters. Anyhow, these were very large auditoriums with very large curtained screens--they were not 1930s movie palaces, but they were classy none the less! The El-Dorado, now a 6 screen theater, still has its JJs. Seeing Star Wars in 70mm Dolby was truly a remarkable experience, as Dolby was state of the art in 1977! I mostly attended the El Dorado and Buena Vista, and I always used to go into the booth and watch the IATSE projectionist so long as I minded my manners! The Buena Vista had pit style seating with 2 booths(1 for each screen) on the ground floor seperated by the consession stand. If memory serves me well, 1 screen was platter and the other changeovers--and I remember that projectionist bustin his backside in crampted, hot, unventilated booths! Other first run films that I saw on these screens included Annie, Star Trek, Superman to name just a few! I only went to the Catalina once, as it was on the other side of town. This was for a special 3-D screening of House of Wax that was shown in conjuction with a lecture that Mr. Vincent Price gave at the University of AZ--and what a gentleman he was!

When entering these theaters, there were simple concession stands, and the food was of course expensive for obvious reasons! There were no slides or loud prerecorded music--one of the local radio stations (usually oldies rock or standards/swing/big band) were played quietly over the airwaves. Having the show open on retracting curtains sure gave a lot of grandeur and aura to the presentation--this is hard to describe and an example that I use is the opening credits of Disney's 20000 Leauges Under the Sea--but I also love the opening title sequence on Those Magnificant Men And Their Flying Machines!

As far as dirt on reel ends from changeovers is concerned--this is not a problem as long as you are properly handling the print and keeping up with your housekeeping--as I have seen this problem on platters also--especially used studio prints where they love to use Liquid Paper to mark the splices! Where I really notice a lot of dirt under this circumstances is on video tape releases.

Oh well, I could go on more, but....

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-10-2001 10:02 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When you get to Atlanta, Georgia, go to the Fox Theatre on Peachtree Street. "Atmospheric" does not begin to describe this place, which is under continuous restoration. It was opened in December of 1929.

The Summer Film Series has some fine 70mm presentations.

I love to go there... obviously!

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Edwin Graf Diemer
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Red Bank, NJ, USA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 10-10-2001 11:07 PM      Profile for Edwin Graf Diemer   Email Edwin Graf Diemer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe is right-I've seen several 70mm/Dolby Digital interlock presentations at Radio City Music Hall, (Lion King, Miracle On 34th Street) and even with one of the finest projection installations anywhere, screen brightness and acoustics were a problem. No wonder why they passed up showing "Kiss Me Kate" in 3-D; they ran "Arena" for a test and discovered that the auditorium was so wide they would have to rope off seats on the far sides-otherwise those patrons would be so far off axis the polarization would disappear. In general, though, I grew up in Wilmington DE, and all theaters were single screen with the exception of one twin. Two were 70mm equipped (Eric Twin Tri-State Mall and Cinemart), but except for 70mm presentations where the engineer was sent in each time to set things up, sound was blah. All theaters had 600-800 seats, and the largest at Tri-State was over 1,500. Even after they twinned the large screen it sat over 900. Union booths made the difference-there was never a time when things were out of focus or out of frame-all the theaters are gone now, and the multiplexes that replaced them are not the same.

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Richard C. Wolfe
Master Film Handler

Posts: 250
From: Northampton, PA, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 10-11-2001 12:25 AM      Profile for Richard C. Wolfe   Author's Homepage   Email Richard C. Wolfe   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I grew up going to the movies during the fifties and sixties, and started working in theatres in 1965. The theatres I attended were at that time all single screen, and were all built as combination houses, or in other words... all had stages for vaudeville etc. and had 1000 to 2000 seats. I always preferred sitting in the balcony as they were the stadiums of their day. The first theatre I attended was smaller with 800 seats, but was a stadium house since the day it was built in 1926.

Prior to working in theatres, I NEVER EVER saw a missed changeover, dark screen, loss of sound or any problem in presentation. After I began working in those wonderful old palaces I found that problems did occur on rare occassions. I seem to remember the sound being much deeper and richer then what we have today. I think the acoustics of those theatres had a lot to do with it. Of course, there weren't all the special effects with surround as we have now, but just enough. There's too much blaring today as far as I'm concerned.

Of course you must relize that the sound that was at the theatres then was far better then anything that we had at home. Today, that isn't always the case. The films of that period were required to have a good story line to capture an audience. They weren't depending on special effects in photography and sound to carry them along.

Contrary to what Jerry said about the decorations being distracting if the plot was weak... that it fact often saved the movie going experience. If the show was indeed weak, one could spend hours just enjoying looking at the theatre. There were so many nooks and cranies and elements of architectural fantasy that they never became a bore. That certainly can't be said about any theatres built today. Yes they are much better then those built during the 70s, 80s and 90s, but still not comparable (not even remotely)to the palaces of the 20s.

The bottom line here is, from my experience, that presentation was almost ALWAYS good to excellent prior to 1970, and that it has been all down hill ever since. I really thought that things were improving with the construction of the new mega-plexes during the late 90s thru today. The vast majority of moviegoers never experienced the movie palaces... and the new plexes were a vast improvement over what had been built during the 70s and 80s. I thought that projection would improve as well, but it hasn't. I continue to hear horror stories all the time from my patrons about what happens at the new plexes in our area.

What can we expect when there is only one person to operate 10 to 20 screens and pay isn't any more then if there was only one. There is a topic posted somewhere here at Film-tech whichs asks what is your policy for refunds or passes when breakdowns occur as though that should be part of the normal routine. And at most plexes it is! It the old days the policy was not to have breakdowns or bad projection... Period.

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 10-11-2001 08:00 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Chinese Theatre has always been a favorite of mine since I saw STAR WARS in 70mm back in 1977. The screen does look kind of small in that audiitorium, even though its really not (walking up close to it, it really is large).

I know the theatre is currently undergoing a 6.5 million dollar restoration that will include a larger screen and updated sound system, new seating, etc. Its supposed to be completed in November

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