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Author Topic: Anybody else getting screwed on Slumdog? Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-18-2009 01:55 PM                     We had "Slumdog Millionaire" booked for next week. We made our booking many moons ago, BEFORE the film hit the big time at the Oscars. We called up the distributor (Criterion) just today to confirm the booking. The guy hemmed and hawed around and made vague statements like "I can't guarantee..." Finally, when the boss pinned him down, he admitted that he didn't have a print of the movie to let out and that he wasn't going to get one. We are now on our own and we only have one week to book a replacement. Let me make it clear: We understand that we are a non-theatrical booking. We know that there are often changes and cancellations, especially when a movie hits it big like "Slumdog" has. That's the way the ball bounces. What the problem is that this guy made the booking, full-well knowing that he was unlikely to get the film. He didn't tell us anything. And to top it all off, he was going to just sit there and let us be on the hook for a movie that he was never intending to send out in the first place. If we hadn't called him, he would have been content to say and do nothing. We have had continual problems with this particular place. They have been slow on the draw on more than one occasion. We constantly have to call him and chase down prints and tracking information on prints. On several occasions, he would have left us on the hook for prints that he sent out late or would not have been sent out at all if we hadn't called and pestered him. Again, we know that studios are basically greedy and they won't release prints to non-theatrical until they think they have wrung all they can from the product. As much as that peeves us off, that is not our main complaint. But we have ads placed in newspapers. We have printed fliers and full color brochures printed and mailed out. We have tickets sold. We have spent quite a lot of money promoting and preparing, months in advance, for a movie that we believed would be played. I know there are others getting screwed on this print. We have had phone calls with others who have been screwed by the same company. Anybody else have a story to tell?  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-18-2009 02:41 PM                        Well, they screwed us for about 7% film rent percentage than the norm for a movie this old (especially when it's almost to video). On top of that we got a print that is scratched badly. So you can certainly have our print if you want to pay the overnite freight to get it there, but it's really not good enough to put on a screen. I've been ashamed of it every single show but we had no way out of using it.  |  IP: Logged Martin McCaffery Film God Posts: 2481 From: Montgomery, AL Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-18-2009 02:44 PM                        You have a non-theatrical showing AND you have ads in the paper?? As far as I know that's a no-no. You should be booking directly from the studio, not Criterion. And getting screwed directly by the studio, which is probably cheaper  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-18-2009 03:36 PM                     quote: Martin McCaffery You have a non-theatrical showing AND you have ads in the paper?? As far as I know that's a no-no. The distributors all know we are open to the public. We are not breaking any rules. We pay the guarantee plus a share of the ticket sales just like other theaters. We have been doing this for nearly 15 years. This is the first distributor who has given us problems. Criterion is the official distributor for Fox Searchlight. We are not supposed to go through Fox directly. On one occasion, we had to bypass NY Films (?) in order to get a print from Sony Pictures and we caught hell for it. Do you think we can bypass Criterion? Might this situation give us cause to do so without catching heat? It's probably too late to get Slumdog but it might be useful in the future.  |  IP: Logged Jonathan M. Crist Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 531 From: Hershey, PA, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 03-18-2009 04:21 PM                     If your venue (i) is open to the general public or allows the general public to attend, (ii)advertises to the general public in the local newspaper(s) and (iii) charges admission upon which you pay a percentage of ticket sales, it is hard to understand how you can be classified as a non theatrical venue. You would probably better off in theatrical category.  |  IP: Logged Justin Hamaker Film God Posts: 2253 From: Lakeport, CA USA Registered: Jan 2004 posted 03-18-2009 06:09 PM                        I'm thinking the same thing as Jonathan. Even if it's a non-traditional location, it still sounds like a theatre to me. Is there a reason why you can't sign up with a film booker that books for one of the various independent theatres?  |  IP: Logged Martin McCaffery Film God Posts: 2481 From: Montgomery, AL Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-18-2009 06:19 PM                        Randy, what the others just said. Are you a non-profit? Many, like us, start out using non-theatric services but eventually switch to theatric booking. Did you guys just get into the habit and not change? Or was management scared to death by the contracts the distributors make you sign giving them your first born and right nut? It really sounds like you guys need to get a booker or book em yourself. I book my own, but if you want some contacts, email me off list and I can get you a couple names.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 03-18-2009 09:53 PM                     Umm. Generally speaking the studios are not willing to deal with colleges and universities as regular clients. They have contractual arrangements requiring that colleges and universities book indirectly through Swank and Criterion. It's not a simple matter of convincing the studio to treat you on second-run terms, or of simply reclassifying you. There are contractual terms. (Additionally, when a movie is this close, first-run or second-run terms may imply minimum number of shows/day, and other things that Randy can't offer Fox.) To address Randy more directly, we were in a similar boat, but we were more aggressive about confirming it right after the Oscars. I'm not sure if we called Criterion or if they called us, but we definitely knew the first week in March. On the other hand, our original date was 3/13, so we were probably a more urgent issue than you were. Randy, note that there was a discussion here on F-T about the Slumdog's DVD date being moved to 3/31, and that was definitely an indicator that something was up. You make it sound like Criterion ships around prints to you. Does that actually happen? For us, they just pass the order up to Fox who directs DFS to send us a print from the local depot. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-18-2009 11:15 PM                     You're right. Just based on the fact that we are on a college campus we are treated as non-theatrical. On one occasion we actually booked a print through Sony Pictures Classics only to get a phone call from NY Films (or is it Swank?) complaining that we didn't go through them. If I remember correctly, we had to pay them their cut anyway. Criterion mostly uses DFS but we actually have gotten prints directly from them and not through DFS. Dealing with Criterion on virtually any level always seems to be a hassle. We often have to call them to make sure prints are delivered on time. On more than one occasion, if we didn't call them the print would have not showed up on time. By contrast, Swank and NY Films have always been dependable. We book the film. The invoice is paid. Then the movie just shows up. One time Criterion screwed us and we ended up getting a VHS tape with watermarks in the picture every five minutes. I get the impression from the way they act that they just don't want to deal with 35mm film. It seems that they'd rather send you the video via UPS and be done with it. I get the non-theatrical vs. second run/theatrical thing. We're not completely happy about that but we're willing to live with it if we have to. We have had discussions about breaking out of the non-theatrical mold but, like John said, it all boils down to money and playdates. The college doesn't seem to want to change things too much so, until they change their tune, we're probably stuck in this mold. We don't like it but it's either this or nothing. I am just wondering whether there are places getting the shaft like this, elsewhere. If there are enough places do you think this would be cause for us to be allowed to bypass Criterion and book prints directly?  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 03-19-2009 08:41 AM                     Well, I doubt it. If Criterion's customers are unhappy enough, Fox might do something, but chances are they would do what New Line did (leave Criterion for Swank) rather than what Universal did (do their own nontheatrical 35mm booking). It is probably a good thing that there is at least some competition in the nontheatrical booking market, and I would feel uncomfortable with Swank being closer to a monopoly than they already are. Also, if you did book directly through Fox, you'd probably be in a similar situation with regard to playdates, and you wouldn't have anything confirmed until two weeks beforehand. That is, those months-out confirmations from Swank and Criterion are just their "best guesses," and don't reflect real availability information. Sure, it would be better to know for sure and not be jerked around. It will be interesting to see if SPC continues to do their own nontheatrical booking (as they are doing now, since New Yorker went under). --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Martin McCaffery Film God Posts: 2481 From: Montgomery, AL Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-19-2009 08:51 AM                        Randy: Did not realize you were a college. So you probably are stuck being a non-theatrical unless they spin off the theatre into a seperate entity. Not likely. Of course, all of the advertising you talked about is really "promotion" (wink wink nudge nudge) which is totally allowed for non-theatrical situations. As for the getting screwed. I remember it happening now and then back in my college days (late 70's) when the world was ruled by Films Inc, and there were more non-theatrical agencies. Quite frankly, it would happen frequently to commercial theatres also as those were the days before megaplexes and 1000 prints was an enormous run. Just consider the screwing the continuation of a grand show business tradition;>  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-19-2009 10:27 AM                        At this point in time Randy probably will not be able to change his status -- the fact that the college has established booking history with the non-theatrical vendors would make it very difficult to switch to theatrical only because whereas years ago the determining factor which defined whether or not you were theatrical or not was pretty much if you were booking 35mm prints, you went to the studios. Nowadays the non-theatrical vendors (Swank, Criterion, New Yorker Films -- if there are any more, I don't know of them), because the 16mm market has dried up for them, they hold on tenatiously to any exhibitor that falls under the catagories that they have defined in their contracts with the studios: colleges, univerities, museums and any other exhibitor that isn't running a commercial operation. Today non-theatrical is defined not by the film gauge you are using, but by your affiliation, and it's that definition that will force you to deal with the subdistribs and not the studios. If you are a college, by contract, Swank or Criterion can insist you book thru them EVEN WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE A PRINT! It's nonsense, of course, but it's the deal they eeked out for themselves with the studios and most orgs that fall under those arbitrary definitions don't have much of a choice. We have gotten around it for decades because since day one (way back in 1984 when I started Brooklyn Center Cinema) even though our Performing Arts Center was physically on a college campus, we were lucky enough to be setup as a separate entity with our own acounts, our own stationery, our own professional staff. I was well aware of the theatrical/non-theatrical quagmire from my time at college so I was very careful to present our operation to the studios as an art house, having nothing to do with the college campus. Not a single piece of promotional material, nor the newpaper or radio ads, or even the checks with which we paid our overages mentioned Brooklyn College anywhere. Everything said Brooklyn Center Cinema. I established a rapport with the bookers of the studios, on a first name basis with many of them so booking titles was just a matter of picking up the phone and calling Warners or Columbia or whoever. As far as the studios were concerned, we were as theatrical as any other art and we played second run off the break and only had to occasionally deal with Swank when a student org from the college wanted to use our theatre to run a film. And back then most of the studios had "classics" departments for their older libraries, so it was much easier. Even now, off the break, studios have no problem booking for a three day weekend engagement (that was our usual run) or even for a single day -- many art houses would play different titles every day of the week, so studios were not adverse to that; they get their guarantee and in years past, art houses could actually make money with a single day run playing classic titles -- imagine that! That said, today I think it would be more difficult to establish ones' self as a theatrical if you had any connection whatsoever to a college or museum because that's the non-theatricals' bread and butter and they will fight tooth and nail to stop you.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 03-19-2009 12:57 PM                     Its funny how even 20 years later, Swank is continuing to give good, prompt service with good prints and the other guys (back in my time it was Films Inc.) just sucked ass. I ran the college film program for 4 years and in all that time I am pretty sure I never had the need to reject a print from Swank. Still that doesn't change the fact that with regards to Criterion, I have not heard one single good thing about them EVER. Pretty sad.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 03-19-2009 01:22 PM                     We reject prints from Swank all the time. Most prints from Swank are regular studio prints. A small handful "Swank prints" are warehoused by Technicolor and are preceded with "SWANK\" in their title. They are uniformly worse (because they are from a small pool sent to a group of customers that include people who don't know how to handle film). It's almost not worth rejecting the SWANK\ prints, though, because there's rarely anything better. And, of course, Swank's pricing is much worse than studio flat-rate repertory pricing, including Universal's. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 03-19-2009 02:23 PM                     You could always put in digital cinema!  |  IP: Logged

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