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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Author
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Topic: First US Theatre With LED Screen
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Martin McCaffery
Film God
Posts: 2481
From: Montgomery, AL
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 04-21-2018 09:58 AM
Got half a million and change sitting around?
quote:
The first LED cinema screen in the U.S. was unveiled Friday at Pacific Theatres Winnetka in Chatsworth, a suburb of Los Angeles, where Warner Bros.’ Ready Player One will be the first movie offered on this exhibition system, starting Saturday. The Samsung LED Cinema Screen marks a radical shift from the theater projection systems that have been used since the birth of cinema. Instead, the LED screen is more akin to a giant television screen, and its use would render the projection booth a thing of the past.
At its unveiling Friday, Samsung shared new details about content creation for the screen — and what it might mean for both studios and filmmakers.
Why switch to LED screens? Samsung vp Stephen Choi argues that “there hasn’t been anything new to draw audiences into the theaters,” and they need “a new experience, to provide the ‘wow’ factor.”
So far, the images that the screen produces have impressed many in Hollywood, including Jerome Dewhurst, senior color scientist at postproduction facility Roundabout Entertainment. He contends that the LED screen’s “pure black is much deeper" than other systems.
It remains to be seen whether the non-expert eye of the average moviegoers will see a noticeable difference, and whether audiences would then be willing to pay a premium for it. At launch, Pacific Theatres Winnetka is not charging a premium for the LED auditorium. But, in time, theaters may choose to charge a premium ticket price to watch movies on a LED screen.
In order to prep movies for exhibition on the new LED screen in theaters, Samsung hopes to outfit post-production facilities so that filmmakers can view their work on an LED display. The first color grading (digital intermediate) postproduction suite to offer a Samsung LED Screen in North America has now opened at Roundabout’s Santa Monica facility. It offers a 17-ft. screen that can play 2K resolution, standard or high dynamic range, 7.1 surround sound, and offers a Blackmagic DaVinci Resolve color grading system. Samsung hopes to add its screens in more post houses.
According to Samsung, its Cinema Screen can play a standard DCI-compliant Digital Cinema Package (the digital equivalent of the film print) if the images are standard dynamic range. But for a high dynamic range (HDR) grade it would require a separate version, meaning that the studios would need to make another deliverable. Studios are already creating multiple versions of their films, including digital 2D, digital 3D at different light levels, Imax, Dolby Cinema, and local languages. The more deliverables, the more time and expense films must spend in postproduction.
The reason for the new HDR version — meaning that the images have a wider range between the whitest whites and blackest blacks — is that the LED screen is brighter than what is typically projected in theaters, which is 14 foot-lamberts (a measure of luminance in cinema). In comparison, the LED screen has a peak brightness level around 300 nits (a measurement of brightness), which Samsung estimates could display roughly 88 foot-lamberts.
The new Samsung LED Cinema Screen in Chatsworth is 34 feet wide and 18 feet high with all of the features of the smaller screen at Roundabout, but it can additionally support 4K resolution.
When introduced to the press on Friday, the theater presented trailers of Black Panther and A Wrinkle in Time, in standard dynamic range; various Amazon trailers including Life Itself, in HDR; and some ARRI-provided demo material shot with its new Alexa LF large format camera, also in HDR.
Ready Player One was screened in its entirety in standard dynamic range and Samsung confirmed that it therefore didn’t create a new version of the film.
But on the HDR front, this screen does underscore a concern voiced by many cinematographers last week at NAB, that in the digital realm, their images can be manipulated and changed all too easily in postproduction. In fact, Ready Player One cinematographer and two-time Oscar winner Janusz Kaminski lamented that cinematographers are losing control of the images they shoot.
The cinematographers’ participation in color grading can vary, as some DPs have guaranteed involvement in their contracts while others do not.
Roundabout’s Dewhurst emphasized that he encourages the DP’s involvement. “It’s Roundabout’s view that an HDR theater requires a dedicated grading session, not an automated system, to create the deliverable,” he added, recommending that the LED HDR grade could be the master version, used as the starting point for other versions of a movie.
Samsung installed its first two LED screens in South Korea.
READ MORE
L.A. Theater Debuts First LED Video Wall in U.S.
He also revealed that Roundabout has already started to invite members of the American Society of Cinematographers to see the screen and discuss the creative work.
Samsung has additionally been showing their LED screen to filmmakers and Hollywood studio execs. The screen might be of particular interest to James Cameron, Ang Lee and other filmmakers exploring the use of higher frame rates. Ready Player One was screened on the Samsung system at 24 frames per second, the standard in cinema. But the tech manufacturer contends that it’s working to get the system up to a high frame rate of 60 frames per second.
The question of how to handle the sound has been a topic of discussion for the past year, since Samsung first announced its LED Cinema Screen plans. This is because in traditional cinema, there are speakers directly behind the screen, which is not doable with LED panels.
For this theater auditorium, Samsung-owned Harman International developed a JBL Professional cinema sound audio system that can accommodate up to 7.1 Surround Sound. Harman’s cinema solutions manager Dan Saenz explained that the new configuration places the front speaker directly above the screen and incorporates some filtering technology, designed to make it appear as though the sound was coming from the screen; and it places an additional speaker in front that bounces high frequency sounds off the screen and into the audience, also aimed at creating the sonic experience of a traditional theater.
Still, the biggest hurdle to a rollout could come down to the cost. Samsung said the cost of a screen could run anywhere from $500,000-$800,000, a hefty price for a theater owner. Pete Lude, chief technology officer of engineering firm Mission Rock Digital estimates that in comparison, top of the line laser projectors generally cost between $150,000 to $300,000.
Samsung argued that there are other benefits that could help offset some of the cost, citing as an example that the LED Cinema Screen’s life span is estimated to be a 17 years. “And we’re looking at financial companies to see if there are options available,” said Samsung’s Choi.
The company also pointed out that unlike projection systems, a LED screen could be used with ambient light in the room, potentially making it an attractive option for dine-in theaters, gaming or other such users.
While Pacific Theatres Winnetka is the first U.S. theater installation, the Samsung LED Cinema Screens are available in several international venues, including two in South Korea, and one each in Zurich, Bangkok and Shanghai. Samsung expects to have at least 10 installed worldwide by the summer, and roughly 30 by the end of the year.
While currently focused on 34-foot screens, Samsung is also working on a 46-foot 4K LED screen, which it aims to introduce in late 2018.
The Samsung LED screen will be on display next week at theater owners convention CinemaCon. And Sony will show its Crystal LED cinema screen during the confab.
[URL=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/behind-screen/how-new-led-cinema-screen-could-change-filmmaking-moviegoing-1104745?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=THR's%20Today%20in%20Entertainment_now_2018-04-21%2010:22:14_rrahman&utm_term= hollywoodreporter_tie]Hollywood Reporter[/URL]
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 04-21-2018 03:43 PM
Sure these things can be used in lighted rooms, just like TV. I guess that's the objective...? Get everyone to pay a premium to watch a big screen TV. So even if a movie plays in theatres before farming it out to video, it's still going to be a made-for-a-TV-screen movie...hehe.
And about that oh-so all-important black level....black level can only EVER be as good as the ambient light in the room. Turn on those lights so people can see what they are eating and there goes whatever advance in blacks that screen can provide. (Anyone ever figure out why people feel the need to strap on a feed bag just to be able to enjoy a movie? -- but I digress) You can't get black-blacks unless the entire room is black and everyone sits in total darkness and you then you have to figure out how to make a screen that doesn't reflect all those super nits back into the room...oh wait, then you've just got a damn black wall, instead of just a big TV. ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
Henry Kloss's Advent VideoBeam projection system very effectively used a system that placed his acoustic suspension at the projector and bounced the audio at the VideoBeam's hard, solid, parabolic curved screen surface. It reflected back to the audience creating a very real illusion that the sound was indeed coming directly from the screen itself. I doubt that would have worked if the screen didn't have that parabolic curve to it, but it might be a starting point for that kind of idea.
Here's a question tho, if you placed enough speakers all around the perimeter of the screen, wouldn't ATMOS processing be able to create the illusion that sound is coming directly from any part of the screen? Isn't that what it does for the rest of the room, i.e. create the illusion that the audio is coming from phantom locations anywhere it wants to place them? Why would the middle of the screen be any more difficult an illusion for it to create?
One of the Yamaha receivers we use in a small screening room has a "height" setting that is able to create an illusion that speakers which are placed on the floor on either side of the screen are at the height of the screen. Depending where you sit, this can be very convincing...or not so much.
Thing is, Yamaha for years has always been masters of audio manipulation -- since the 80s they pioneered a system where they have gone into famous halls like La Scala or Carnegie Hall, etc, done something with laser sweeping technology and are able (remains to be seen how well able) to make sound played with that processing setting, sound as it would if performed in that hall. No question it is audio smoke and mirrors, and who knows unless they fly you out to La Scala and let you play your CD there how close they get to it. Point being, seems with a little R&D, processing should be able to come close to positioning sounds where they are needed without having to have speakers there.
At one time in history Disney techs thought they needed to place speaker all across the front of the theatre (9 channels & speakers, I seem to recall) in the place the musician in the orchestra would have been sitting in order to recreate the orchestra correctly. We have come a long way since that quaint idea and understand that three or even two channel/speakers can create that illusion quite accurately. The only reason why we have not gone further in R&D to figure out how to create point-source location from the screen without there needing to actually have a speaker at that location is because our R&D figured it out with holes in the screen and we stopped there. You can bet that necessity will be a powerful motivation to figure out how do it without the holes.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 04-21-2018 04:45 PM
quote: Sam Graham
How serviceable is it if it breaks down? Does everyone really want to relive AMC’s old HITS sound days? I mean, Sony seems to have a solution with their OLED sets and their Acoustic Surface technology, but can something like that work on a cinematic level?
I have one of those Acoustic Surface OLED screens and it works pretty well. It sounds better than most of those flimsy speakers they put around the edges or with speakers behind the screen. For bass, they still need a separate speaker though.
The only reason it works well with those OLED screens is because they're so extremely thin and densely packed together. I can't imagine anything like this to work with something like a giant LED wall, without causing a massive amount of resonance.
quote: Mike Blakesley
Our projector is just about 8 years old and I'm beginning to wonder what our next machine will be like. I was hoping it might be a laser machine but I'm not so sure.
The Laser-Phosphor machines will probably get in reach of the average low-to-mid-end xenon machine within now and a year or two.
Now, with Laser-Phosphor you have the advantage of not having to change your bulb every so often, but it's still unclear what kind of hours you realistically can expect from such a laser light engine.
I would love to see some good reviews of this LED wall technology. I'm especially interested in how a 2K wall would look like, while sitting in the front part of the auditorium. While large LED walls can look amazing from afar, they can get extremely ugly close-up, because of the usually massive screen door effect.
Projection allows you to somewhat "blur" the screen-door effect away by adjusting the focus, LED walls don't have that "luxury".
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-22-2018 01:45 AM
I'm not surprised to see the price of this Samsung LED display running at least $500,000 to $800,000. I wonder if that's just for the 2K price. Cost per RGB LED cluster (or pixel) is the biggest barrier for any mass adoption of these boards.
quote: Sam Graham
How serviceable is it if it breaks down? Does everyone really want to relive AMC’s old HITS sound days? I mean, Sony seems to have a solution with their OLED sets and their Acoustic Surface technology, but can something like that work on a cinematic level?
Service is going to be another thing on top of the huge up front price. These LED displays are literally a bunch of individual modular driver boards all joined together like bricks in a wall. If one board goes bad you just replace that individual board rather than the entire display. It's not hard to do at all. Still, a theater operator is not going to like having to replace LED tiles in his screen frequently. The cost of doing so will add up after awhile. So the build quality of these boards has to be very good. There's a bunch of stuff out there that is just imported crap and can't hold a candle to the American made boards companies like Daktronics.
As a LED screen ages the brightness level of those LEDs drop. New replacement boards won't match perfectly with the LEDs as they age. Any decent modern product line of jumbotron signs should have adjustment software where new boards can be tweaked to match the appearance of older existing boards in the sign. Without such a feature the whole display will eventually take on an uneven "quilted" look. The tiles have to collectively look uniform in color and contrast. I don't know how far Samsung is over-doing the color capability of its board design. The LED signs we sell from Daktronics have a physical capability of 281 trillion colors, even though you're never going to show more than 24-bit or 32-bit color content on these displays. The sheer overkill on shading of each color channel is to allow for adjustment of new replacement tiles.
quote: Sam Graham
I can see the technology evolving down the road, but it’s just not here yet.
As I've said in other posts about this stuff I think they have to come up with a different kind of LED board design that lets sound pass through it. The conventional driver board design used on signs and billboards isn't appropriate for this application.
Regarding black levels, brightness and contrast, full color LED displays can be pretty awesome on all those fronts. A projected image, even one from a laser source, will never equal the extremes of color and contrast that can be shown by one of these LED displays. A black piece of detail on a LED screen is going to look pretty freaking black when it's next to other details that can be painfully bright.
When the first full color LED signs were commercially sold they really kind of stank in terms of outputting color and contrast evenly from light to dark. Shadow detail could be crushed all to hell and highlights blown out. The displays were great for showing off garish color primaries, but not as good for subtle tones. Lots of advances have been made over the past 20 years and more keep coming.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 04-22-2018 08:06 AM
They are starting at 4K resolution, yes they can play 2K but none are native 2K.
As for Dynamic Range, no it is no longer ambient light dependent because the screen is no longer a reflector, it is just a transmission device. You can effectively make them ignore the Exit signs and more.
I believe the sound aspect will be overcome with time (they definitely are not there yet nor would I advise anyone to develop significant workarounds for it. Sound isn't something that should be "good enough" when it comes to getting the sound to come from the image.
I stand by my prediction that within 10 years, people will no longer be putting in projectors. Direct View is the end-game of cinema presentation. It has all of the benefits and few of the downsides of presentation. The current hurdles are sound and cost. Sound will be overcome as they already can "print" LED screens. Imagine, if you will, a flexible direct view screen that you could hang flat, curved or whatever, all without geometric distortions or Morie'. It works in high or low ambient light.
With current technology, it is already a serviceable item (it is comprised of smaller blocks that can be individually replaced. They already have screen protectors for the blocks so if a kid throws a drink at it the screen, it can be cleaned off (better than a vinyl screen, which becomes ruined).
Since this technology can be ported to the home, the potential market is BILLIONS of systems out there with Cinema being used as the advertisement for the home. That is what will drive costs down.
The two biggest players are Samsung and Sony, at the moment, two of the industry's entities that have very good home presence. This is GOING to happen. And I don't think it is a bad thing, so long as the sound issue is addressed (and I really think it will, without BS psychoacoustics).
And Mike, if you aren't running 4KW or higher on your xenon projector, don't bother with Laser, there is just so very little benefit there and ZERO cost improvement. At 4KW, that is a different story, there can be LONG-TERM cost benefits (not at the onset). I haven't seen LP lasers come down in price enough to warrant their being used below 4KW.
Christie's new CP4325-RGB laser looks very promising, we'll see if the others have a similarly priced RGB (it is under $100K and can compete with a 4.0KW 1.2" xenon machine on light while delivering 3X contrast.
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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 04-22-2018 06:54 PM
quote: Steve Guttag
I stand by my prediction that within 10 years, people will no longer be putting in projectors. Direct View is the end-game of cinema presentation. It has all of the benefits and few of the downsides of presentation. The current hurdles are sound and cost. Sound will be overcome as they already can "print" LED screens. Imagine, if you will, a flexible direct view screen that you could hang flat, curved or whatever, all without geometric distortions or Morie'. It works in high or low ambient light.
A few years ago, I remember somebody almost jokingly discussing this with John Pytlak (R.I.P.) in a thread about Kodak and OLED. Amazing how quickly technology has progressed that, as you say, it is very likely going to happen in the shortish term future.
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