Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Lucas and Digital projectors (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Lucas and Digital projectors
Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 05-16-2002 04:49 AM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The following article is from the Kansas City Star. The managers at my theatre all got a kick out of Lucas's understanding of projection..
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/entertainment/movies/3255683.htm

***

Lucas blasts into the future with digital `Clones,' but theaters have to catch up
By ROBERT W. BUTLER
The Kansas City Star

The future is here.

At 12:01 a.m. Thursday morning the first paying customers in selected theaters -- including the largest auditorium of AMC's Studio 30 megaplex in Olathe -- will sit back and experience "Star Wars: Episode II -- Attack of the Clones."

It will mark the first time a major Hollywood live-action blockbuster has been shot, edited and projected in the digital process. Fans who see the movie in Studio 30's digitial auditorium -- the only digital screen in the metro area and one of only about 60 on the planet -- will experience a depth, clarity and subtlety of lighting that in some instances seems pratically three-dimensional.

But that may not necessarily be to the liking of film buffs. Unlike projected film, a digital movie doesn't flicker. Rather, it flows. There is no gate -- a mechanism in a conventional movie projector that rapidly opens and closes to allow separate frames of film to be illuminated. As the gate jiggles, it creates the flickering sensation that has accompanied cinema since its creation more than a century ago.

"Some people call the flicker created by the giggling gate the 'soul of film,'" Lucas told reporters last week during a series of interviews at his Skywalker Ranch north of San Francisco. "Really, all it is is the gate moving around, making it hard to see the image so that it's sort of fuzzy. You can create that effect digitally if you want. But it's easier on the eyes if you don't have it."

Some say a digitally made and projected film gives the viewerthe illusion of being immersed in the scene rather than merely watching it.

"It's like going from a cassette tape to CD sound," explains Brett Miller, vice president of operations for the Lenexa-based Dickinson chain, which recently installed a digital projector at its new NorthRock multiplex in Wichita. "It's so much sharper -- just beautiful."

Smack in the mainstream

Technically speaking, "Attack of the Clones" isn't really a film, because true film -- that perforated strip coated with light-sensitive chemicals -- has been eliminated from the process.

Instead Lucas shot his latest space fantasy using a "24-frame high-definition progressive scan" digital camera specially made for him by the Sony and Panavision corporations. The images he captured were not frozen on film but collected on a computer hard drive, then manipulated by digital effects artists to create the fantastic worlds of a long-ago time in a galaxy far, far away.

Until now digital filmmaking has been largely the domain of moviemakers trying to avoid the high costs associated with conventional film, particularly expensive laboratory developing fees and the price of scanning film footage into a computer so that it can be edited electronically (a process pioneered several years ago by Lucas and now used throughout the industry).

Recent low-budget movies shot digitally (although they had to be transferred to film so they could be shown in the theaters) include "The Anniversary Party," "Italian for Beginners," "Breaking the Waves," "The Center of the World," "Time Code" and virtually all documentaries in recent years.

But those projects inhabit the margins of mainstream moviegoing. They were made with less-than-perfect cameras and look more like videotape -- fuzzy and blurred -- when projected on the big screen.

"Attack of the Clones," though, is as mainstream as you can get, part of the most lucrative and popular movie franchise of all time. Its images are near-perfect. And Lucas is using the technical excellence of his latest movie as a sort of velvet gauntlet to coax -- or club -- theater operators and the big studios into enlisting in the digital revolution.

The problem is money. Nobody argues that digital filmmaking is the wave of the future. But exhibitors so far have been unwilling to pay the $150,000 or so per auditorium required to install digital equipment. Most of the more than 3,000 screens showing "Clones" this weekend will be using conventional prints.

And that clearly frustrates Lucas, who described to reporters a near-conspiracy between the studios and the exhibitors to block the spread of digital cinema.

"For about a year we've been struggling to get theaters to go for this, and they've locked arms and said, basically, `We're not going to do it,' " Lucas said." `And if anybody does, they're breaking this sacred oath we have.'

"We've even offered to give certain theaters digital equipment for free. And those theaters are being told, `Don't take it from them.' It's as if we're drug dealers, and if these theaters start using digital they'll never go back. The studios have founded committees and decided to study the matter for a number of years.

"They're stalling because they want to know how they can make money from this. The issue is you don't make money from this. You just have to put aside your greed for the sake of the audience."

Lucas said he had hoped that "Clones" would be shown digitally in 400 or more theaters. He'll have to settle for only 60, most of them in North America.

In Kansas City, AMC spokesman Rick King suggested that the industry's slow immersion into digital projection is less about conspiracy than about caution. Exhibitors are still reeling from a series of bankruptcies that resulted in part from a competitive building spree in the '90s.

"This is a far more complex transition than any other change the industry has experienced, certainly much more complex than the arrival of digital sound a few years ago," King said. "AMC has been a leader in the field testing of digital projection, and we're big proponents of digital evolution.

"But before we can move forward we have to make good business decisions, and there are just too many complex issues out there that haven't been resolved yet."

Digital projection will someday become the norm, King said, adding that it will probably co-exist with conventional film.

So, whether it's a case of conspiracy or just industry-wide caution, most "Star Wars" fans will have to watch "Attack of the Clones" in conventional theaters using conventional film projection.

And what they'll get is a rapidly deteriorating imitation of the real thing, according to "Clones" producer Rick McCallum, a former Kansas Citian who came to work for Lucas more than a decade ago.

"You spend $100 million making a film over four years...now how do you get that to the audience so they can see the exact film you made?" McCallum said. "So that it's not going through the degradation of exhibition prints that are run off at 1,600 feet a minute in what effectively is a laundromat? The labs that make the exhibition prints do the best they can, but it's a photo-chemical process and every day the chemicals are a little different. It's alchemy. And it's not reliable.

"Then once a release print goes on a platter system at a multiplex it's run 25 to 50 feet over wires to a projector and it becomes degraded very quickly. Within a couple of days it doesn't even resemble the film we made. It's absolutely imperative to us to change that."

With digital prints -- delivered to the theater on a DVD or via fiber optics or satellite -- the movie is always seen in its pristine state. No matter how many times it is shown, there will be no dust spots, tears, scratches, faded colors or blips.

McCallum argues that the studios are the ones who stand to gain most from the digital revolution. Currently, he said, the studios spend $1 billion a year to make and ship exhibition prints, an expense that could be eliminated with digital delivery.

"They have the most to gain from sitting down and working this problem out," McCallum said. "Instead they're putting the brakes on, stonewalling because they're fearful of change, fearful they're going to lose control.

"But they're going to lose, anyway. We believe that with only 60 digital theaters out there, those theaters will differentiate themselves. They'll gross three or four times as much as their counterparts. Once that happens it sends a very clear signal that people are willing to get in the car and drive an extra 30 or 40 miles to see a movie that's crystal clear, with no weave, scratches, dirt.

"The studios just don't believe audiences care about it. They're about to learn differently."

In fact, Lucas promises that when the next "Star Wars" movie comes out in a couple of years, he'll allow it to play only on digital screens.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To reach Robert W. Butler, movie editor, call (816) 234-4760 or send e-mail to bbutler@kcstar.com.


 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-16-2002 07:39 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
"Then once a release print goes on a platter system at a multiplex it's run 25 to 50 feet over wires to a projector and it becomes degraded very quickly. Within a couple of days it doesn't even resemble the film we made. It's absolutely imperative to us to change that."

Surely that statement from Rick McCallum was a misquote. If he really thinks that, boy does he need to come pay me a visit...preferably in about 3-4 months so he can see just how horribly "deteriorated" my prints will be. Perhaps he can bring along a DLP projector to do a side by side comparison with when he visits.


 |  IP: Logged

Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 05-16-2002 08:47 AM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"You just have to put aside your greed for the sake of the audience."

When you lie and use rhetoric like this to "prove" your point, all credibility is gone... Convince us why we need this digital crap, (when movies run their course in a few weeks and then die to video anyway), and how you're going to make it fair cost-wise. And admit the real market (bars, home theatre, concerts) and maybe each multiplex will buy ONE for alternate programming capability.

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-16-2002 09:14 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Quoting from the article:

"And that clearly frustrates Lucas, who described to reporters a near-conspiracy between the studios and the exhibitors to block the spread of digital cinema.

"For about a year we've been struggling to get theaters to go for this, and they've locked arms and said, basically, `We're not going to do it,' " Lucas said." `And if anybody does, they're breaking this sacred oath we have.'

"We've even offered to give certain theaters digital equipment for free. And those theaters are being told, `Don't take it from them.' It's as if we're drug dealers, and if these theaters start using digital they'll never go back. The studios have founded committees and decided to study the matter for a number of years.

"They're stalling because they want to know how they can make money from this. The issue is you don't make money from this. You just have to put aside your greed for the sake of the audience."

I hope these statements are misquotes, or taken out of context! IMHO, they trivialize the real issues involved in the transition to Digital Cinema, and demean the hundreds (thousands?) of people working to resolve these issues.

As others have said, the amount of misinformation being presented by the "popular" press about Digital Cinema is appalling.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


 |  IP: Logged

Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-16-2002 09:25 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
JP, I too wonder if this is a misquote:
"They're stalling because they want to know how they can make money from this. The issue is you don't make money from this. You just have to put aside your greed for the sake of the audience."

If true, Uhhh, OK George, donate your profit and make the next generation of digital projectors free and without strings attached.

Sheeesh! Conspiracies, evil empires, put aside your greed.


 |  IP: Logged

Charles Everett
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: New Jersey
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 05-16-2002 10:46 AM      Profile for Charles Everett   Email Charles Everett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All too typical of the Lucasfilm Whores: Worship anything digital, bad-mouth anything 35mm. Good thing Lucasfilm was not involved with the launch of DTS.

The non-Star Wars movies mentioned (The Anniversary Party, Italian for Beginners, etc.) are arthouse product -- a fact not made clear in the story.

Also, the Newark Star-Ledger ran a similar story last Sunday as part of the ENDLESS ENDLESS HYPE! for Episode 2. The only theater people quoted in that article were 2 owners of indie theaters -- which don't have the attendance or the revenue to afford DLP.

 |  IP: Logged

Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 05-16-2002 12:09 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow! I really learned something. I had no idea the gate jiggled.

------------------
This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

 |  IP: Logged

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-16-2002 12:14 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It pisses me off, too, that these digital people keep saying the theatres are UNWILLING to pay for the equipment. Try "unable."

This just goes to further prove that these guys might know alot about film-making, but they have no CLUE about exhibition. Why don't they stay on their side of the fence? We're not telling them how they MUST make their movies.

 |  IP: Logged

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-16-2002 12:16 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Also, there will be no true test of how much better a digital cinema will do until one is installed with no signage, no hype, NOTHING to indicate it's digital...except the picture on the screen. People are so turned on by the word digital that of COURSE they are going to flock to the digital screens. Hell, I'm not even a Star Wars fan, and I'd still like to watch it in digital, JUST TO SEE.

 |  IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-16-2002 02:18 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What Mike said. Most people have spent a fair amount of time watching images projected from film. (Relatively) few have seen DLP. When presented with the option of "35mm or DLP" of course anyone who is mildly curious will choose DLP. This won't change until more people have experienced DLP exhibition and have had the opportunity to decide for themselves whether or not they prefer it to 35mm film projection (or whether they just don't care). Only at that point will we know if DLP is a success in the eyes of the public. My bet is that the vast majority won't notice the difference; some will undoubtedly prefer film and some (probably those who have experienced "film done wrong" one too many times) will prefer DLP. I don't see it as something that most people will be willing to pay a premium for.

Heck, even though I believe that the current generation of DLP systems is inferior to 35mm film for "typical" non-CGI movies, I am interested enough in the technology that I will still pay money to see DLP shows.

 |  IP: Logged

Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-16-2002 02:46 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I called ROBERT W. BUTLER to try to encourage him to learn the truth about what he's writing about. All I got was an answering machine. I invited him to call me, but have not heard from him. Will I hear from him????? I wonder.....

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

 |  IP: Logged

Don E. Nelson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 138
From: Brentwood, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2001


 - posted 05-16-2002 03:08 PM      Profile for Don E. Nelson   Email Don E. Nelson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"So that it's not going through the degradation of exhibition prints that are run off at 1,600 feet a minute in what effectively is a laundromat?
Can anyone say, "Digital Snob", . . . a few decades ago, the BIG argument was: Which is easier on my vinyl records, multiple record playing changers or single play turntables,? Well, it's a moot point now, I play CD's, but back then boy was I ever an "audio snob" (audiophile) no record of mine was ever going to play on a changer, can you imagine what happens to that poor little groove when it falls about 3 inches down onto the playing surface, and what about the tracking angle of the stylus? Actually nothing happens, much.? More damage is actually done by the stylus generating friction and heat in the groove.
Old George is just caught up in the "current technology", ....at the moment. This is all coming from the guy who said "special effects shots" are only there to enhance the storytelling. Now, tell me, how does Digital Projection, enhance the story? Maybe it is time to change the name of his company from LucasFilm Ltd. to . . . . . . . ?
My next bumper sticker is going to say: Long Live Film.

------------------
...more signal, less noise!

 |  IP: Logged

Dennis Atkinson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 129
From: Birch Run Michigan
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 05-16-2002 04:43 PM      Profile for Dennis Atkinson   Author's Homepage   Email Dennis Atkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A jiggley gate: I hate it when that happens

 |  IP: Logged

Adam Wilbert
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 590
From: Bellingham, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2002


 - posted 05-16-2002 05:41 PM      Profile for Adam Wilbert   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Wilbert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Really, all it is is the gate moving around, making it hard to see the image so that it's sort of fuzzy. You can create that effect digitally if you want. But it's easier on the eyes if you don't have it."

i was actually under the impression that its easier on the eyes if you DO have the "jiggly gate". Doesn't the image on a DLP projector only change 24 times a second, but on film, the same image is shown two or three times before its changed to get a flicker of 48 or 72 fps? Anything lower than that causes headaches when exposed to for long periods of time.

 |  IP: Logged

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 05-16-2002 07:44 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's the thing Lucas may not realize:

Audiences may not care.

We have a good example of this here in Lawton. The Central Mall 12 theater is a joke of a new complex. Only 2 DTS equipped screens and the other 10 have bottom of the barrel sound systems. All theaters have tiny screens and the stadium seating in the small auditoriums has a closer resemblence to bleacher seating. This theater doesn't even use its DTS players!!!!!

In spite of this, the mall theater literally has double the attendance numbers of the Carmike 8 on the west side of town. The Carmike has all 8 screens DTS equipped and has one of two screens originally built for THX still certified.

Tuesday night, there was a hoard of people camped out at the mall waiting to be the first in line to buy tickets for the midnight show Wednesday night/Thursday morning. There was a small trickle of a crowd at the Carmike theater (it had a line around the corner of the building standing vigil for "Episode I").

The Carmike theater is very cleary the much much better theater in every technical sense. I enjoy watching movies at this place more than any other theater in all of Oklahoma. But most people by far go to the shitty-but-new mall theater out of convenience.

Now, with this situation being acknowledged, how in the hell can George Lucas even muster the breath to complain about theater operators being "greedy" in not installing digital projection? He has not made one credible argument on how the exhibitors will get any return on the investment. The conversion to digital projection is so much more costly (around 10 times as costly) as installing a 5.1 digital surround sound system for a commercial theater screen.

And let's also call into question the movie studio's break on profits. They're taking the lion's share of the money for the first several weeks of any film's run. The theater is only making money at all from concessions at that point. That's all the more reason to stick the freaking distributor with the $150,000 to $300,000 cost for the hardware.

I also haven't heard any of the digital projection cheerleaders out there make one peep about assuring exhibitors their very high priced equipment won't become obsolete extremely fast. The mass consuming public may wrongly believe "digital equals perfect." But after 2 decades of replacing outdated personal computer systems, stereo systems and all kinds of other digital gear, the general public certainly knows DIGITAL DOES NOT LAST.

I know George Lucas is a much more savvy businessman than how he is behaving right now when it comes to arguing to theaters to install digital projection. Deep down, he has to know there is no credible business model at all to justify a mass conversion to digital projection. The math just does not add up.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.