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Author Topic: Networking Woes
Mark Gulbrandsen
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Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-25-2002 12:15 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just finished setting up a new Box Office For Windows ticketing system here in Aspen, CO. Am having terminals dropping off the network at random. Seems to happen more often when the system is really busy, but this also happens when a terminal(s)is idle.This can happen at any time and re-booting the computer brings it back on line just fine. We have several other installations of this system (Box Office For Windows 32 Bit) running in other locations just fine. Any suggestions as to why this sort of problem can occur on a system would be appreciated. The OS here is XP Pro, Linksys 16 port Switch, All terminals networked back to a main ticketing system server built around Celeron 1.2 ghx cpu's, 256 mb ram.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions and input.
Mark @ GTS

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 06-25-2002 12:34 AM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,

Sounds like it may be a routing problem with the switch, a little extra info about the network may help...

Have you assigned IP address and subnet masks to clients?
What operating system are you running on the server?
Do the clients logon to the server?
What make/model are the network cards?
What network protocol are you using? Is it the only one installed?
Can other stations see the dropped stations?


Daryl

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Steven Gorsky
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Frederick, MD, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 06-25-2002 12:54 AM      Profile for Steven Gorsky   Author's Homepage   Email Steven Gorsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Daryl's list is a great start, but I have some additional questions.

Were all network cables tested after being installed?
How many terminals/clients?
What brand are the computers? (There are some systems and components that have questionable quality)

Steven Gorsky

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David Stambaugh
Film God

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From: Eugene, Oregon
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 - posted 06-25-2002 11:38 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is the server dropping the client's connection to it? Or is the client losing its network connection independently? When this happens on the client, do you get a red "X" through the network icon on the lower-right of the task bar? This would indicate that the client thinks the network cable is unplugged or there's no link bit detected. Do the link bits remain lit on the switch at all times?

Are all the patch cables certified Cat-5? If they're home-made, make sure that pins 1 & 2, and 3 & 6 are each a color pair and consistently assigned at both ends.

Presumably, you've assigned private static IP addresses to each client and the server, making sure to use the correct subnet mask. Use a standard Class C address like 192.168.0.x with a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0 Make the server 192.168.0.2 and number the clients from 192.168.0.3 up to whatever the last one is.


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Scott Norwood
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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
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 - posted 06-25-2002 11:41 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does this product even use IP? Or does it use some other protocol?

Have you run a packet sniffer on the network to look at the traffic? If you have a "managed" switch, have you checked its logs and statistics for clues?

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David Stambaugh
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From: Eugene, Oregon
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 - posted 06-25-2002 02:20 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When the clients *are* working, is their network performance good? Any signs of communication problems with the server before the client gets disconnected, such as slow response times?

As Scott said, if it's a managed switch it would be helpful to check out the error statistics etc. on each port. Is the switch brand new, or is it used? If it's used it could be something weird with the way it was previously configured.


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Mike Williams
Master Film Handler

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From: Knoxville, TN
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 06-25-2002 09:02 PM      Profile for Mike Williams   Email Mike Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can you ping any of the terminals when they "drop"?


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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
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From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 06-26-2002 01:15 AM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've never seen a managed 16 port switch from LinkSys on any of my suppliers fax sheets, I believe they only make 24 port managed switches.

Since the clients are all running XP I'd still assume that it is an IP network since the protocols have been pretty much merged.

So far it's been my experience that most box office software is not protocol dependent and uses either mapped network drive (possible with most any protocol) or full UNC paths (also possible with most any protocol).

Cabling shouldn't be a problem given that clients are randomly dropping off the network yet being immediately reconnected on restart. This would suggest a software/hardware problem. If restarts didn't always work or work immediately I would then look into the cabling.

I guess we'll just have to wait for Mark to provide some more info.

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Gordon McLeod
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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 06-26-2002 09:39 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is probably windows itself being flaky use reel operating systems

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 06-26-2002 06:17 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have tried assigning static IP's to each computer, 169.254.104.1 (server), 169.254.104.10 through 15 for the terminals, with a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0. This does not work any more reliably than auto mode but logs on reel fast. I added IPX/SPX protocal and its family and things are much better. Auto assigning of IP's is a bad way to go as re-loggin in takes 2 min. or more. Re-log in in with static assigned IP's is real fast, about 15 seconds or less. Right now I have just about all the protocols and family that XP Pro offers and the system has been fine.....
The systems are based around the new Shuttle Micro PC's running Celeron 1.2ghz CPU's, 256 meg ram and 7200 rpm IBM drives. These things fly, and are only 8X8x9 inches! The switch is a Lynksys 16 port unit. No, the CAT 5 cables have not been integrity verified.
The software is Sensible Cinema Box Office For Windows... true 32 bit version. Any other suggestions are appreciated? We ahve several other installations running just fine. Same computers and all.

You old folks up in Canada still running on old 16 bit systems don't know what you're missing in the new 32 bit OS's, but then you are still using 1930's oiling techniques too so what more could one expect??
Mark @ GTS


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David Stambaugh
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From: Eugene, Oregon
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 - posted 06-26-2002 07:18 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
IPX/SPX is a protocol unique to Novell NetWare. I can't imagine how adding that protocol would improve things. In fact I doubt the protocol is actually being used at all even though it's installed (not saying adding it didn't help, only that I don't understand how or why). I do seem to recall though that IPX handles corrupted data packets better than IP. IPX's packet retransmit scheme is faster than IP I think. Way back many years ago we introduced IP to our Novell network and we immediately started having performance problems with clients that were running IP only. Found out that a 10/100 switch was randomly corrupting data on its uplink port. This bothered the performance of IP much more than IPX.

I think the finger is pointing at the patch cables, especially if they were terminated on-site, which is probably the case. Check those wire pairs very closely, and make sure pins 1 & 2, and 3 & 6 are color pairs and identically assigned at both ends of each patch cable (i.e. if pin 1 is solid orange at one end, make sure pin 1 is solid orange at the opposite end, etc.). I've seen supposedly knowledgeable low-voltage licensed technicians incorrectly terminate network cables by wiring them in progressive pairs straight through (1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5 & 6, 7 & 8 - WRONG). You want 1 & 2, 3 & 6, 4 & 5, 7 & 8 (although you can leave out 4 & 5 and 7 & 8).

I'm looking at a Black Box factory-made Cat-5-certified patch cable and the pin assignments are:

1 - Orange/White
2 - Orange
3 - Green/White
4 - Blue
5 - Blue/White
6 - Green
7 - Brown/White
8 - Brown


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Scott Norwood
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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
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 - posted 06-26-2002 09:56 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm with David on this one: buy/borrow/steal a cable tester and see what you find. Also try swapping thw switch for a known-good one.

And, Mark, some of us like our 64-bit OSes....

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 06-26-2002 11:29 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have tested all the cables with a simple tester that confirms correct wiring of them. Although this is existing cable I suppose it could be a problem. Its is left over form some other POS system that was in use here. The Linksys switch is just a desktop type 16 port switch. I have an older 3-Com 10 port hub with me that I will try tommrrow. I donno if the hub can handle the 32 bit system though. Since we ahve sold other systems exactly like this that work fine I am beginning to suspect the switch may be bad. I also have a networking technician comming in tommrrow to check it all over. I'lllet you know whats found if anything.
I agree on the 64 bit stuff!! I wonder what they are thinking about all that 64 bit stuff North Of The Border.........?
BTW: There is no red X through the network symbol on the task , just a software warning that says to check the mapping to the files on the server, or to check the server.
Mark @ GTS


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Steven Gorsky
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From: Frederick, MD, USA
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 - posted 06-27-2002 02:07 AM      Profile for Steven Gorsky   Author's Homepage   Email Steven Gorsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hubs (and switches) don't care if it's 32-bit or 16, they only are concerned about data speed (either 10 or 100Mbs). At this point I would say it is the cabling.

Ethernet networks require category 3 (or higher) UTP (unshielded twisted pair) for 10Mbs and category 5 (or higher) UTP for 100Mbs. If you're unsure about the rating of the wire that was already there, replace it, and the problems should disappear. If by chance it is cat 3 or 4 - you should be able to just change the network settings to use 10Mbs (not 100Mbs), and the problems should go away.

David did give one of the correct wiring standards (EIA/TIA 568B) for ethernet. I'm listing the other (EIA/TIA 568A) below for completeness.

1 - white w/ green
2 - green w/ white
3 - white w/ orange
4 - blue w/ white
5 - white w/ blue
6 - orange w/ white
7 - white w/ brown
8 - brown w/ white

Steven Gorsky


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Jason Burroughs
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From: Allen, TX
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 - posted 06-27-2002 03:13 AM      Profile for Jason Burroughs   Email Jason Burroughs   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How long are the runs to the switch?

Auto-assigning of IP Addresses is preferable, as it allows more flexability, and avoids IP conflicts. However there will be a delay on boot up, Unless you have a DHCP server on the network. What happens otherise is Windows listens for a DHCP server, times out, and then uses the Microsoft Private IP range 169.254.x.x

Annother thing to check is overall network traffic, see if there is a broadcast storm, you may have a computer that keeps forcing a bowser master election in there somewhere.

As far as multiple protocols, I would recommend either using IPX/SPX OR TCP/IP.


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