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Author Topic: Stadium seating in danger? Paul Linfesty Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1383 From: Bakersfield, CA, USA Registered: Nov 1999 posted 11-28-2002 01:49 PM                     From the Los Angeles Times Nov 28, 2002: AMC Entertainment Inc., the giant movie theater chain, said Wednesday that it plans to appeal a recent federal court decision that its popular stadium-style seating violates the Americans with Disabilities Act. Last week's ruling by U.S. District Judge Florence-Marie Cooper in Los Angeles stemmed from a 1999 lawsuit brought by the Justice Department. It broke a string of successful legal victories by the theater industry, which claims to have complied with the 12-year-old law by providing other, unobstructed views for moviegoers in wheelchairs. In her decision Cooper said wheelchair users are segregated into separate areas, usually close to the screen, that are inferior for movie viewing. The judge concluded that AMC theaters violated the disabilities act by failing to "provide lines of sight comparable to those for members of the general public." "It's a great victory for common sense," said Larry Paradis, executive director of Disability Rights Advocates in Oakland. AMC's offices in Kansas City, Mo., closed early on Wednesday and executives could not be reached for comment. But AMC said in documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission earlier in the day that it planned to appeal Cooper's decision. AMC noted in the filing that other courts had approved the kind of seating AMC provides for the disabled, and added that Cooper's ruling does not suggest any specific remedies. As a result, AMC said, it was impossible to know the effect the ruling could have on both the company and on the movie exhibition business as a whole. Industry experts said, however, that the judge's decision could force theater owners to revamp their seating plans, potentially costing them millions of dollars. Stadium seating is a relatively new innovation that gives moviegoers a clear view of the screen without having to look past the head of the person in front of them. Rows of seats rise sharply on tiered levels, in contrast to the gently sloping seating that theaters traditionally have offered. AMC first installed stadium seating in Dallas in 1995, court papers show. It since has made stadium seating a key part of its marketing, advertising that seats "virtually suspend the moviegoer in front of the wall-to-wall screen" and that all seats are "the best in the house." Because stadium seating is accessible by stairs, theaters usually set aside an area below for those in wheelchairs. Law professor Mark Kelman of Stanford University said that Cooper's decision was significant because it questioned the notion that the disabled should sit in another area away from most others to watch a movie. The disabilities act was intended to break down those barriers. "It's not about how much worse the line of sight is, but about segregation," Kelman said Law professor Chai Feldblum of Georgetown University in Washington said providing more equal seating is a reasonable request for theaters. "If I really care about getting a good seat in a theater, I have the power to get there early and get a good seat," said Feldblum, who helped write the disabilities act. "But if I use a wheelchair, I can never have the access those who don't use wheelchairs have." AMC shares were unchanged Wednesday at $9.70 on the American Stock Exchange.  |  IP: Logged Daniel Boisson Expert Film Handler Posts: 157 From: Buffalo, NY, USA Registered: Oct 2001 posted 11-28-2002 02:24 PM                     Stuff like that pisses me off, I do understand their point though. At a Regal theatre I went to, they had an Elevator installed that went to the middle and top via hallways. No matter what kind of theatre, anyone in a wheelchair will always have to sit in the designated area, where ever the cuttout is.  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 11-28-2002 03:12 PM                        The problem for exhibitors is more a matter of how the ADA laws are structured. Without commenting on how AMC designs their auditoriums (I've never been in one they've built themselves), it seems this is an example of how a situation looks to an individual. It could be that the plaintif is opportunistic, with a good lawyer... or it could be more genuine. In the end, what makes good seating for you may not be the same for me. "Reasonable accommodations" means very little, because you can't define it. In the case of seating, what makes a good vantage point for you may be unacceptable for me. A mobile person will have the option to adjust his position, whereby one in a wheelchair may not. The example of having an elevator in the auditorium is interesting, but I doubt there are many around. The Seattle Cinerama is the only one I'm aware of, and that's just to get you to the balcony. In any case, the corporate definition of "reasonable" will never match that of the consumer... especially where capital expenditure is involved. Until laws are passed that set definitive standards (whose?), the ADA will be a magnet somewhere for the interpretive, abusive, frivolous and/or opportunistic lawsuit. Until all theatres are built from an "ADA approved" set of scalable blueprints, there'll be plenty of potential targets.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 11-28-2002 06:45 PM                    As Daniel says, if taken to extreme this would require every single seat to be removable just in case a wheelchair person wants to sit there and giant aisles so reach each spot. And that's even besides the stadium tiering issue. Can a handicapped person demand to sit absolutely anywhere they wish, even in a sloped floor venue? Most reasonable people would say no. Obviously this is impossible nor is ripping out thousands of stadium seating theatres. But they may have to come up with a way of including some seating in more average positions rather than just at the very top or very bottom. Maybe new builds will need to be mid loaders.  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 11-28-2002 07:07 PM                        At Cinemark 17 in Springfield OR, opened in 1999, each stadium-style auditorium has ample wheelchair space about 1/3 back from the screen. These areas are actually very well-located and easily-accessible. I don't see how anyone could complain about them unless they're just looking for something to complain about.  |  IP: Logged Paul Cassidy Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 549 From: Auckland, New Zealand Registered: Aug 2001 posted 11-28-2002 07:09 PM                        This was one of those Catch 22 situations with us as well , when there is any major alterations made to a Cinema , you need to comply with the New Regulations on Wheel chair access to the building and that may reqyuire installing Lifts etc , but when looking at the Fire Codes , it says that there are to be No Wheel Chairs or Push Chairs in the Audtoriums and that Disabled Persons should be Seated and carried out in the event of a Fire , Which makes sense as a Wheeled person would hamper or endanger others as they quickly (Some running)attempt to vacate the Area.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 11-29-2002 01:56 AM                        My heart goes out to those who are disabled, and I believe we should not ignore them and try to do our best to make sure that they get a good show. But people need to realize that the world does not revolve around disabled people or anyone else, for that matter. There is no way that they can all be pleased 100% of the time. And initiatives like this are ridiculous even though they are well intentioned on the surface. I can't wait until the blind start suing movie theaters.  |  IP: Logged John Moriarty Film Handler Posts: 50 From: Cambridge, UK Registered: Feb 2002 posted 11-29-2002 03:39 AM                     Joe said quote: I can't wait until the blind start suing movie theaters. Wait till the deaf get in on the act aswell. John  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 11-29-2002 03:43 AM                        What about the blind and deaf? There goes descriptive audio and closed captioning. More on topic... does AMC force people in wheelchairs to 'park-it' in the wheelchair designated area or do they allow people to 'park' their wheelchair in the center of a row in front of an empty seat?  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 11-29-2002 07:29 AM                     For what it's worth, the vast majority of the wheelchair seating (possibly all?) that I have seen is far too close to the screen for optimal viewing. Yeah, it's not like you're sitting 2 feet in front of the screen with a crick neck, but it's far less than 2 screen heights and I would never sit that close to the screen by choice, unless the room was already crowded. So perhaps the point is that "If a disabled person is the first one into the room, they should have the option to get a seat comparable to what the first non-disabled person in the room will get." Of course, I don't know how you structure that. It seems a monumental task. Short of wheelchair lifts around the room, perhaps the best you can do is ensure that the entry level to the auditorium is around 2 screen heights, and people wanting to sit closer have to walk down steps, rather than the usual which seems to be entry level being around 1/2 screen height. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Michael Gonzalez Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 790 From: Grand Island , NE USA Registered: Sep 2000 posted 11-29-2002 11:25 AM                     Someone answer me this... Since the term Stadium Seating is obviously used because the seating structure is similar to that say a Football stadium. This begs the question, how is it that actual football, baseball, or any other kind of stadium enviroment isn't subject to this kind of lawsuit? I would think that a judgement against movie theaters would affect them also. It is just a fact of life that there are going to be handicap sections at a lot of public events. It is not discriminatory it is just practial as cold hearted at that sounds.  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 11-29-2002 11:32 AM                        I don't think that there are Engineering Guidlines for sports stadiums that outline best viewing areas, etc. Unfortunately there are for movie theatres and the ADA is representing the EG's as standards, which they are not.  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 11-29-2002 11:33 AM                        I suspect the example I cited has the wheelchair spots [entry level] located at ~1.5 x screen height. They may be closer than the theoretical ideal, but they're hardly "front row". I'll pay more attention to that on my next visit (now I'm curious).  |  IP: Logged Mark J. Marshall Film God Posts: 3188 From: New Castle, DE, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 11-29-2002 02:39 PM                    A little off topic... The other day while doing a walk through, I noticed an empty wheel chair parked in the aisle, and a person actually seated in the theater seat next to it. The theater was only about 1/4 full, so I didn't consider it a big deal. About 15 minutes later, I looked out the booth window and saw the wheel chair was all the way down in the front row by itself. I'm not sure how it got there, but can you imagine how freaky it would be to be sitting in The Ring (which is what it was) and having an empty wheel chair roll past you down the aisle???? Wow. I think after seeing that it would be time to go!  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-29-2002 03:52 PM                     Decisions like this are crap...... At the end of the day with all due respect... the disabled are just that... disabled. Abled bodied people should not lose out because of what is after all a minority. I fully support the fact that everyone should have access to a cinema and that some concessions have to be made to accomodate as required. But things like this threaten the very heart of modern living and design. We have similar stupidity in the UK, so what do we do in the future. Build flat floor auditoriums for the benefit of maybe seven visitors per screen each year. Many disabled people object to the 'special' status they have had forced on them by the well intentioned. We already make great efforts to provide induction loops, or infared system. There are a few subtitled prints around and some using the DTS system. All of these systems cost the theatre considerable sums of money for NO measurable return. Political correctness is in control except there seems to be no one at the helm and the good ship common sense is adrift. But then we no longer have problems in this politically correct age... we have challenges. We no longer have half empty glasses because they are all half full! We print every offical document in a number of languages... all of this at great cost with total disreguard for common sense. Whatever happened to the saying 'When in Rome do as the Romans do'... learn to speak and read the language of your 'chosen' country. I recall one show where there was a signer who decided he needed to be just below the screen and well lit so he could be seen clearly. The fact that this ruined the film for 99.99999999% (you get the idea) of the audience was imaterial. So lets dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator. Here's my spec for the politically correct cinema.... Mono sound so that the whole audience is given the same sound as those that have a hearing disability. Black & white so the audience has empathy with the colour blind. Lets forget about Wide Screen for fear that the tunnel blind should miss anything. We'll throw in 3D, just to be safe.... oh let's take IMAX with it... because we can Now lets cut the length of films so the incontinent don't miss anything. Have a staff ratio of one to one so in the event of an emergency everyone can be individually escorted from the building. The list of stupid item's could go on and on..... but if you follow the 'logic' its all the same. Eveyone should have equal service or availability of facilities. As this is clearly impractical most of the time dumb it all down. Now I'm sure I'll be accused of everything from being in league with the devil to being racist to being any 'ist' you can imagin. But society really needs to stand back and look at what is happening. I have no problem with a truly open society where everyone has an equal chance.... but NOT at the expense of everything we are entitled to and have come to expect from modern life. We have wheel chair access at the front and back of our auditoriums. A lift gives access to the upper landing and the bar and cinema entrances, with disbaled toilet facilities on each level. We are happy to give access at street level if required, all we ask is they advise us when tickets are booked or collected at the cash desk. Yes.. that unfortunatly makes those patrons 'special' but is it discriminatory? I do not advocate that special facilities should be proportioned to the expected return, because if that were the case there would be no disabled facilities available anywhere. All I ask is that common sense be applied.... but then the fact that its 'common' suddenly means it should not be applied with common sense! Oh dear I'm sure I'll burn in hell for all of this.... Time for a large G&T! My new email address is... KenMcFall@burning_in_hell.co.uk ... watch out for the .com branch opening soon!! see some, most, of you there One more thing I should add... in case someone out there objects to this being posted... These are my own opinions, and I submit them for presentation as such. That should upset the 'You can't have an opinion' brigade as well!! All I can expect from writing this down is to become an 'outcast'.... when in fact many would totally agree with me but then being part of a majority is no longer acceptable is it? Regards  |  IP: Logged

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