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Topic: No GFCIs in British bathrooms?

Jon Miller
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 973
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 12-05-2002 08:06 PM

I have a non-film question for our UK-based friends...

An article in the Home section of last Sunday's San Diego Union-Tribune explained the prevalence of separate hot and cold faucets in the bathroom sinks of British homes, long after the USA and most of Europe adopted the mixer-type single faucet as the standard. According to the article, economics, tradition, and the British plumbing code kept the two-spigot sink concept alive. The article also mentioned in passing that British electrical code dictated the bathroom light be controlled by a pull-chain switch instead of a wall-mount switch and that no power outlets were allowed in bathrooms, save for a single outlet designated for electric razors.

In the USA, full-fledged AC outlets have been allowed in bathrooms for decades, with ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) outlets required by code since 1977 or so. With so many appliances that can be used in a bathroom (razors, rechargeable toothbrushes, hair dryers, etc.), were 240v GFCIs developed for the European residential market and is the British electrical code so strict as to keep these devices out of the bathroom?

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-05-2002 08:41 PM

Normal UK Mains Socket:

UK Low-Current Shaver Socket:

From a web page for travelers to the UK:

quote:
In older buildings a suitable socket for an electric razor can sometimes be found on the rim of a bathroom light fitting. In more modern buildings there is usually a suitable placed wall socket, often with an earth trip switch.

Also found this:

quote:
In Britain it is illegal to have electrical outlets in a bathroom so that people don't go throwing heaters, etc. in the tub, but there is an exception for low current outlets for razors, electric toothbrushes, etc

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Mike Rendall
Film Handler

Posts: 78
From: Southampton, Hampshire, UK
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 12-06-2002 03:57 AM

The electrical codes are quite strict for residential wiring and you are right that no electrical sockets are allowed in bathrooms except for special razor points. All light fittings in bathrooms up until recently must be operated by a pull cord so there was no danger of electricuting yourself should your wet hands touch a dodgy switch.

To be honest, I didn't realise that other countries allowed sockets in bathrooms, I didn't think that we were different in any way to any of our european counterparts. I mean, you can have sockets in kitchens and you are just as likely to touch them with wet hands etc?

Many of the bathrooms over here still have individual taps for hot and cold water, although many newer homes and people who have redone their bathrooms move over to mixer taps. I don't know if there is any reason for it, I suppose if people still want to buy individual taps then they can?

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 12-06-2002 03:40 PM

A recent inovation in US plumbing is to have both hot and cold water piped into the toilet tank. That prevents condensation from forming on the outside of the reservoir caused by very cold water within. This is an advantage when humidity is high, either because of the weather or because of taking hot showers.

In Romania, shower curtains around the bathtub were unknown, and each bathroom had a central floor drain. When I tried to explain the use of a shower rod and curtain, I got the reply, "Why are US housewives too lazy to mop the floor after showering?"

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 12-06-2002 05:16 PM

Oh great...the next thing you know we will loose our DC outlets next!

Steve [Razz]

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Jon Miller
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 973
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 12-06-2002 09:13 PM

Ahh, now I know...it's an "earth trip switch," not a GFCI. Correct?

Mike, you wrote...

quote:
To be honest, I didn't realise that other countries allowed sockets in bathrooms, I didn't think that we were different in any way to any of our european counterparts. I mean, you can have sockets in kitchens and you are just as likely to touch them with wet hands etc?

True, kitchens can be a potential trouble spot as well. Of course, the electrical code here also mandates GFCIs (or earth trip switches, if that's the proper Brirish term) in kitchens, as well as any outdoor location, including garages. I would think the European community at large would embrace the concept of a GFCI, given the potentially dangerous combination of standard 240-volt residential current and common-sense-challenged individuals. [Eek!]

Some bathrooms in American homes built before the 1960s, most likely equipped with a wall-mount or pedestal-type bathroom sink, had an AC outlet mounted on the underside of wall-mounted light fixture. I guess, in those days, the standard duplex outlet was installed in bathrooms with some form of counter space near the sink. (The bathroom in my 1961-vintage house had an ungrounded duplex wall outlet, which I converted to a GFCI outlet.) Now, with hair dryers, Water Piks, the obligatory bathroom radio (kept at a distance from the sink, of course!), and electric razors, the duplex outlet with GFCI is now the norm here.

One interesting thing about the code requirements for GFCIs here is that it allows an old two-prong outlet in houses with no ground (earth) wiring to be replaced with a GFCI outlet. The GFCI will protect you in case of a short to ground even without proper grounding of the outlet. However, if the appliance requires a proper ground for electronic reasons (a computer, for example), an ungrounded GFCI will do no good.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-06-2002 09:23 PM

It looks like in the UK and other parts of the world they are commonly called "RCD", Residual Current Devices. Also "ELCB", Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers.

RCD

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 12-06-2002 10:10 PM

In Germany, all power outlets have a grounded Schuko. That stands for SCHUtzKOntakt and means protecting contact.

The Schuko is the brackets on the sides.
Power outlets in bathrooms have their Schuko to be connected to a safety switch which breaks the circuit if more than 30mA flow through it.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 12-07-2002 01:27 AM

Jon wrote:
However, if the appliance requires a proper ground for electronic reasons (a computer, for example), an ungrounded GFCI will do no good.

How do you figure? The GFI looks at current going out the hot versus that coming back on the neutral. A person getting shocked is in contact somehow with the hot side and current is flowing through them to ground and this flow eventually rejoins the neutral side where the system ground is. The slightly greater current going out the hot than is coming back on neutral at the outlet trips the GFI. The protection remains even if someone plugs in a three prong device via a cheater plug as well as when properly grounded. If a housing is metal then grounding it prevents it from ever rising above ground potential. An internal minor leakage current will trip the GFI and obviously a direct short would trip the regular breaker.

Michael wrote:
Power outlets in bathrooms have their Schuko to be connected to a safety switch which breaks the circuit if more than 30mA flow through it.

That's a nice safety feature but doesn't replace a GFI since typically someone receiving a shock is passing current to ground not necessarily via the grounded components (the shell, etc.) of the device.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 12-07-2002 09:10 AM

Steve,

Replacing a 2-pronged outlet with a 3-prong GFI will not provide proper grounding for a device that needs a good ground..it only protects the humans. Neutral and Ground are most certainly NOT the same thing! At least they are not after the first panel after the step down transformer.

You can't violate ohm's law...if you have something plugged in and it is drawing some about of current...there will be a potential difference on the neutral wire between it's ends that follows Ohm's law. Furthermore, any noise the device puts on the line will be there too.

Grounds are unique in that there shouldn't be any real current flow on them and tend to stay at ground potential. Depending on the box for a ground may be sufficient for tripping a circuit breaker but as far as providing noise isolation it isn't nearly good enough.

Steve

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 12-07-2002 10:08 AM

AFAIK, RCDs are not compulsory for any domestic power points in the UK, but they're increasingly being fitted in the breaker boards where the main (usually 60 amp) power comes in from the street. You can also buy them as boxes which plug into the mains, with the appliance plugging into the box. I've got one of those for the computer, which cost £20 (that was 3-4 years ago; they're probably a bit cheaper now). As for earth wires, all plugs have three pins. The top pin is the earth, which is slightly longer than the other two. As you insert the plug, the top pin releases a latch which allows the other two (neutral and live) to be inserted. On appliances that come with factory-fitted plugs which are not earthed, it's quite common for the top pin to be a lump of plastic. If that snaps off the plug is useless, because with the socket's earth latch in place, the bottom two pins can't be inserted.

As for bathrooms, the switches either have to be pull cords or normal switches situated outside the bathroom. Both are common. The mains power supply here is 230 volts AC. I'm not aware of any laws or regulations covering separate or combined hot and cold taps; you tend to get both. I prefer separate ones becuase the water (in most of the UK) is so hard that taps get scaled up and washers fail very frequently. With separate taps, although the hot tap washer fails frequently, it doesn't disable the entire water supply, which it would do in a combined tap.

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Matthew Bailey
Master Film Handler

Posts: 461
From: Port Arthur,TX
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 12-07-2002 10:16 AM

Maybe the laws don't require unless otherwise,but I believe that sump pumps installed in elevator hoistway pits require the use of a GFCI outlet or circuit.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 12-07-2002 11:34 AM

Steve, I think you misconstrued my response. I was not suggesting that a GFI device is a substitute for proper grounding where it is needed. I was commenting on the statement that they do no good in that situation. If Jon meant that they do not obviate the need for a ground then I quite agree. I was disagreeing with the notion that they do no good at all. As you confirm, they would protect the humans!

As for the business about neutral vs ground I never said they were the same; I didn't comment on that at all. The rest of that paragraph was simply an explanation of how the device works which is to compare current levels on hot and neutral and trip if there is a non trivial difference as this would indicate leakage (possibly someone getting a shock) which is leaving the hot and going to ground (ground as in surroundings not ground wire or conduit) and returning to the neutral side at the point where the neutral is grounded often the service panel, meter socket, etc. This leakage current would be bypassing the neutral current sensing in the GFI device creating the differing levels which trips it. Unfortunately there is always some leakage which means that if the device is too sensitive there are many nuisance trips and is why entire homes are not protected with a single device.

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 12-07-2002 08:29 PM

THAT's why my granddad, (who got stationed by the RAF to Canada in the early 50's and thankfully brought me mum with 'im), put all the bathroom light switches outside the room when he wired my parents house! Everyone thought we were strange. Wow, learn something new every day!

Signed,
Dave
The "Half-Brit"!

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