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Author Topic: German cannibal convicted
Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 01-30-2004 06:43 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Manslaughter verdict for cannibal

A German court has convicted self-confessed cannibal Armin Meiwes of manslaughter and sentenced him to eight years and six months in prison. Meiwes, 42, admitted killing and eating Bernd Juergen Brandes after sex and hours of sado-masochism but insisted his victim had volunteered.

It has been Germany's most sensational trial for decades.

The verdict falls well short of the prosecution's demand for a 15-year sentence for sexual murder. The defence had sought a verdict of illegal euthanasia, carrying a far shorter sentence of six months to five years, on the grounds that it had been a 'killing on request'.

But while rejecting the defence's argument, the court also ruled that Meiwes had had no 'base motives' for the crime and settled on a manslaughter verdict, as Judge Volker Muetze told the packed courtroom. Meiwes had not, he said, committed a murder in the legal sense 'but a behaviour which is condemned in our society - namely the killing and butchering of a human being'.

'Seen legally, this is manslaughter, killing a person without being a murderer,' he said. The judge described the killer and his victim as 'two deeply psychologically disturbed people who both wanted something from the other'. The case could make legal history in a country which has no laws against cannibalism.

Video killing

Dressed in a dark suit and tie, Meiwes sat impassively as the verdict was read out in court. The BBC's Ray Furlong says that for Meiwes, the verdict was a good result. The well-spoken computer technician killed and ate Brandes three years ago, after placing an advert on the internet. It was, he told the court in Kassel, the realisation of a dream he had nurtured ever since having schoolboy fantasies about consuming his classmates.

Despite this, psychologists said he was mentally fit to stand trial. His victim, also in his 40s, bought a one-way ticket to the defendant's home village and spent an evening with him, before volunteering to be killed. The court also saw a grisly home video of Brandes being stabbed to death.

Memoirs

The defence had argued that the crime was a form of mercy killing but the prosecution said this did not apply because the victim had been mentally disturbed. Brandes 'asked to be stabbed to death,' according to Meiwes. A psychiatrist who testified at the trial said Meiwes had a 'schizoid personality' but was not mentally ill.

Investigators found he had been in internet contact with more than 200 people who shared his fantasies. Meiwes, who may be eligible for early release for good behaviour, has said he plans to write his memoirs in order to persuade other people with similar fantasies to seek help in time.

The internet cannibal, who ate the flesh of Brandes over a period of several months, defrosting cuts from his freezer, may now be the most notorious cannibal in modern German history. However, his record pales in comparison with the crimes of his countryman Fritz Haarmann, the 'Monster of Hanover'. Haarmann, a butcher, murdered at least 24 boys and youths between 1918 and 1924 and sold their flesh to customers seeking cheap meat.

Link to story.

Tried any tasty Californians yet, Michael? [Big Grin]

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 01-30-2004 07:01 AM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow.

Dont eat Californians. I imagine that they have a leathery taste, being out in the sun all the time, you know?

Jeffrey Dahmer ate too, but his victims were unwilling.

What a topic variety we have here!

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-30-2004 09:00 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This will be a movie, you wait and see. Maybe not theatrical, but at least a movie-of-the-week.

Or Fox will make a reality series of it.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-30-2004 12:29 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The next CBS "Survivor": "Survivor - CANNIBAL". The contestants have knives, and absolutely NOTHING else available for food. [Roll Eyes] [Eek!] Talk about "back-stabbing". [uhoh]

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 01-30-2004 02:45 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Or on British telly we could have 'I'm not a cannibal, get me out of here!' (Link to the programme I'm talking about)...

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-30-2004 05:50 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are the Germans that stupid? He only got 8 and a half years......? Idiotts, he should be served up to the other inmates at the prison.
Mark

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 01-30-2004 06:58 PM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Dont eat Californians. I imagine that they have a leathery taste, being out in the sun all the time, you know?
Oh PULEEZE Bruce! What a lame statement! EVERYONE knows we all taste like "chicken"... [Wink]

I hear when you went to Dahmer's place, he gave you the cold shoulder... [Razz]

>>> Phil

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-30-2004 07:06 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Phil, Thats cuz Bruce had Film-Guard on his breath and Jeffery sized him up by the smell!

Mark

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 01-30-2004 07:27 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Phil:

CHICKEN?

I think that ham is more like it. Hee Hee Hee...

As for my long-neglected FG drinking problems, I am so well preserved that I no longer look like the old geezer that you see to the left. My skin has a nice rubbery texture that oozes FG. I run a cleaning rag over my skin and clean film. Keeping it inside makes it go further.

I never got the cold shoulder from Dahmer. He always offered the skin off his back.

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Roger Katz
Film Handler

Posts: 61
From: Thomaston, CT, USA
Registered: Feb 2003


 - posted 01-30-2004 08:30 PM      Profile for Roger Katz   Email Roger Katz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Too bad he didn't get the death penalty. After all, I'm sure his last meal request would be quite interesting.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 01-30-2004 11:43 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would not recommend a cannibal eat anyone from Oklahoma. Odds are he would dine on a crystal-meth addict (or "tweeker" if you want to use the slang term). With all the poisonous shit that goes into meth the cannibal would probably die from his meal. Or at least get a bad case of the shits.

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 01-31-2004 04:02 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Too bad he didn't get the death penalty.
There is no death penalty in Germany. I think there is no Western European state which still has it. Some still have it in theory (I think) but don`t execute it anymore.
The principle on which this is based is the same on which his conviction is based: That no one under any circumstances can take the life of another human being. Otherwise, it wouldn`t have made sense to convict him. After all, his victim consented. I remember seeing something about this case on TV in Germany 2-3 years ago. His victim, obviously a deeply disturbed man himself, had consented to being killed long before and they actually had planned it for a while. But I also remember dimly that it was at least somewhat doubtful if the victim actually expected to be killed in the end, or if he understood it more like a perverse game.
The killer was of course the a little quiet and secluded but basically regular guy who the neighbors would never have thought could be a killer.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 01-31-2004 05:50 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I think there is no Western European state which still has it. Some still have it in theory (I think) but don`t execute it anymore.
It's illegal under EU law. Until quite recently we had it on the statute books for 'piracy on the high seas with violence' (how is it possible to do this without any violence?!), 'arson in Her Majesty's shipyards' (a big deal when ships were all built out of wood and the hulls sealed watertight with tar) and one or two military offences. But the government repealed those laws to bring us into line with the EU. Turkey also had to repeal the death penalty in order to be allowed EU membership. In his bolshier moments President Chirac has expressed nostalgia for the guillotine and a desire to get chopping again, especially at drug smugglers (preferably those of African extraction). But were he to do so I imaginge that would create an even bigger Franco-EU headache than their breach of the Stability and Growth pact has...

quote:
The principle on which this is based is the same on which his conviction is based: That no one under any circumstances can take the life of another human being.
Well that can't be enshrined in European law, because The Netherlands and Switzerland permit euthanasia on medical grounds.

If I understand this case correctly, the bottom line is that Germany quite simply has no law against cannibalism, becaue no-one thought there'd ever be any need for one. What I don't understand is why he was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. The difference (in our law, at any rate) is that murder is the deliberate carrying out of an act which is intended to kill someone, and does so. In order to prove it in court, you have to show that the defendant committed the 'actus reus' (guilty act), and to show the presence of the 'mens rea' (guilty mind, i.e. s/he was sane and meant to do it). Manslaughter is the deliberate carrying out of an act which is not intended to kill someone, but does so. The standard of proof is the same, but the mens rea in this case is simply to prove that s/he intended to carry out the act which resulted in the death, not to cause the death itself. So if I aim a gun at your forehead at point blank range and then pull the trigger, it's murder. If I drink a bottle of whisky, get in the car and then run you over while crossing the road, that's manslaughter.

By those criteria it's totally irrelevant whether or not the victim consented to be killed. If the defendant is not judged to be mentally ill (which Meiwes wasn't) and it was proved that he deliberately and premeditatedly perpetrated Brandes' death, than I can't see how that's anything other than murder.

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Carl Martin
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Oakland, CA, USA
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 - posted 02-01-2004 02:53 AM      Profile for Carl Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Carl Martin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
so you would have had to have deliberately run me over (without intending to kill me) for it to be manslaughter?

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 02-01-2004 03:20 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am not very familiar with law stuff, but I would think that that would not count. You cannot really run somebody over intentionally and be sure that you won`t kill him in the process. That`s like firing a gun at somebody and then saying "I didn`t mean to blow out his brains, I only wanted to shoot off his ear".

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