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Author Topic: Avid vs. Final Cut Pro Tal Marks Film Handler Posts: 57 From: New York, NY Registered: Oct 1999 posted 02-01-2004 08:59 PM                        Hi y'all. I would like to know if I were to pursue some formal education in the editing arena, what would be better to learn? Avid or FCP? I have some working knowledge of FCP and I'm familiar with the interface. I have not, though, worked with the Avid. Is there one platform with more advantages of mastering than the other? From what I read and see, it seems Avid is more of a "professional" platform as FCP is widely used in the Indie world. I'm sure I'm wrong. I would ultimately like to be involved in the motion picture feature film world (like i am now), but on the post-production side. If anyone is currently using either one of the above mentioned programs professionally, I'd like to know why one and not the other and what types of projects you've worked on. If you could also state your opinion as to the pros & cons of each, that'd be great, too. If I'm leaving out any pertinent information to answer any questions, please let me know. thanks.  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 02-01-2004 09:05 PM                       Everything seems to be going the FCP route, from what I've read.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-01-2004 09:21 PM                     Ultimately, you're probably going to need familiarity with both. FCP is gaining acceptance with bigger budget features. With those two thoughts in mind, I would then recommend that you start with FCP as it is easier to own -- and you could conceivably get more gigs if you could provide your own gear. Learn and practice "the principles" with FCP as you also learn the software. Classroom experience will prove beneficial if it walks you through the process of actually capturing and managing video dailies that originated on film -- with SMPTE timecode in addition to code numbers for picture and sound. Learn how to read and decipher an edit decision list (EDL) as well as how to use it to conform a workprint based on that information. You won't learn these concepts very well if you're just working with DV footage and you won't get (or keep) a real editing job if you're green in these areas. Once you have the principles down it will be easier to learn Avid. The cost of that system is still a bit prohibitive so you probably won't be able to own one (especially if you've already spent $ on a system with FCP). This means that your Avid experience will likely come strictly via classroom training or work experience. You're probably going to start as an editorial PA, apprentice or intern. Not too much editing there but you can move up to Assistant Editor pretty quickly these days and for that job you're going to need skills and experience in organizing and managing the footage moreso than actual hands-on digital editing. The approach to management of the footage doesn't change all that much...even if you're cutting actual film. Which all brings me back to FCP. Start there. Career Tip: The movie industry likes people who show up a little early and can devote their attention and their time to the work at hand. I've personally known people who got "replaced" (see "fired") for taking a sick day and routinely showing up "a little late" or leaving "a little early."  |  IP: Logged Tal Marks Film Handler Posts: 57 From: New York, NY Registered: Oct 1999 posted 02-01-2004 09:59 PM                        Though I can already hunt & peck my way through FCP I have a feeling that's the place to start. Thanks Manny for those tips and words of wisdom. MIX Magazine (Feb, 2004) has a great article by Stephen St. Croix (P.24) talking about how Apple is changing the face of media apps with GarageBand and FCP Express, for starters. It looks like Apple is out to conquer all. -t  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 02-01-2004 10:05 PM                    Learn how to sync dailies!  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-01-2004 10:09 PM                     Yeah, I was gonna say... ...if at all possible, try to gain some experience on a film that is actually screening FILM dailies (with sync sound) and conforming a workprint for screenings. You would be missing a lot of the process if you work on a show that isn't getting film dailies.  |  IP: Logged Tal Marks Film Handler Posts: 57 From: New York, NY Registered: Oct 1999 posted 02-01-2004 10:24 PM                        Yeah. Maybe I should start talking to all the people that come to my theater with unmarried prints and other various workprints. There's almost always some asst. editors glued to them.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-02-2004 12:28 AM                     You could find yourself working in the real world pretty darn quick if you're willing to donate time. Postproduction schedules are getting tighter and tighter and this means that a lot of editorial staff are working under extreme pressure. Budgets don't give them the staffing they really need. If you're willing to get your experience by working for free it could pay off in the not-so-long-run. When an editor gets a job, he's more likely to want to re-hire the last guy(s) he worked with -- if they worked well together (and if they're available). You could get paid after working two or three gigs for free. They know you won't work like that forever and they'll REALLY like you a lot and probably feel indebted to you because of your sacrifice(s). Another tip: Even when donating time, you should work as though you were getting paid. This means don't be a lazy guy but, at the same time, don't let people take advantage of you or disrespect you. Gee, you're making me wanna get back into editing.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 02-02-2004 12:48 AM                        I would be amazed if EDL's will be necessary in the future. Cutting and snipping negatives will become a lost art I believe. It will be easier just to edit the entire thing in a non-linear app and then output directly to film. I guarantee that day is coming.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-02-2004 04:40 AM                        What about those who still prefer to edit on film, Joe? The whole "digital intermediate" thing really isn't cost-effective for films which don't involve any optical/digital effects work. And workprints will still be needed for dailies screenings (any decent DP will want film dailies). Edit: is there some sort of "trick" for syncing (synching?) dailies? I've done it before with 16mm and it's really not difficult as long as there are proper slates at the head or tail of each scene. It _is_ time consuming, however. Edit #2: is there a book out there with information on EDLs, film matchback from video/EDL, etc.? I've seen FCP, but not with the film plugin which is needed to provide a proper cut list automatically, without needing to use tc/keycode burn-ins and pencil and paper to do it manually. [ 02-02-2004, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Scott Norwood ]  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 02-02-2004 07:10 AM                     Final Cut Pro is a great app, but it is more tailored to doing video work. Avid holds the strong lead on the professional end, particularly when it comes to editing feature films. Keep in mind, I'm talking about the high-end turnkey systems sold by Avid, not the "affordable" software they sell for use on PCs and Macs. The same thing can also be said about systems sold by Discreet and Pinnacle. Comments I've heard from professional photographers and videographers suggest the most important thing to have in getting a good post-production job is simply having a good looking portfolio or work (your reel). Many of those high end systems have a lot of the same basic concepts at work and it should not make much of a difference if you're great at using Final Cut Pro, Avid or whatever. If you're good, you're good and the person doing the hiring should see that in your work, not in some stupid list of apps you may or may not know. I'll tell you, the American graphics industry would be in much better shape if people were hired based on portfolios rather than bullshit application lists on their resumes. Collectively, the US graphics scene sucks badly, all thanks to so many businesses hiring unqualified, untalented people and driving down the wage scales. Places like Sweden have a much better environment with quality of work being the important thing.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-02-2004 07:22 AM                        Bobby makes a good point. Hiring an editor because he knows how to use {Avid, FCP, Steenbeck, Moviola, etc.} is stupid. It's like hiring an accountant because he knows how to use Excel or a photographer because he knows how to use a Hasselblad camera. One should hire people based on thier knowledge and ability in their primary field (editing/storytelling, accounting, photography/art, etc.), not based on their ability to operate particular tools. Ideally, one would hire an editor based on seeing prior work and then let him use whatever tool he is most comfortable with. And, anyway, any competent editor should be able to learn whatever equipment is necessary to do the job, just as any competent accountant should be able to learn software which makes his job easier and any photographer ought to be able to adapt to whatever type of camera is most appropriate for the job. Ultimately, the employer should care most about the quality of the finished film, accounting records, or photographs, not the tools which were used in the process. Not to mention that one who is skilled in a particular area usually knows what tools are most appropriate for each jobs. You wouldn't use a Steenbeck to cut "reality TV" shows, Excel to keep records for a company the size of IBM, General Motors, or Shell Oil, or an 8x10 view camera to photograph sports, at least not any more than you would use a screwdriver to pound nails. Hire the craftsman for his skills and ability and let him choose the tools that are appropriate for the job.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-02-2004 09:54 AM                        Lots of information on the Motion Picture Editors Guild website: http://www.editorsguild.com/ http://www.editorsguild.com/news.html http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/MayJun02/training_update.html  |  IP: Logged Paul Linfesty Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1383 From: Bakersfield, CA, USA Registered: Nov 1999 posted 02-02-2004 10:33 AM                     Bobby Henderson makes an excellent point. Learn the craft from a creative standpoint, and don't limit yourself to one app. If you choose just one app to become an "expert" in, you may limit yourself in the job market. Because different companies have invested in different apps. COLD MOUNTAIN is an axample of a film cut on FCP. Just watch a lot of people now "rushing" to the format, with some false reassurance that it is the app, not the editor running the app, that made it a good editing job. It was Walter Murch, who has edited on probably every conceivable piece of editing equipent in the last thirty years who provided the skill and talent.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-02-2004 04:31 PM                     First -- I believe I made that same point earlier when I suggested buying FCP to learn the software and to also get hands-on experience. Second -- It is all fine and well to say how the world SHOULD work but you're not helping Tal in the final analysis. The reality of the situation is that our friend won't get much work without experience dealing with the software and the technical process. In the end, it won't matter how good his editing reel looks if he cut it on film and doesn't know how to use a digital editing solution. Third -- The concept of syncing dailies is an easy one but doing so with speed and without making a mess of the film takes practice. Fourth -- A digital intermediate might make sense nowadays if there are a lot of costly process shots but if it's mostly straight-cutting then I would imagine that a negative cutter conforming to an EDL should always be cheaper. Granted, I would agree with the notion that the cost of getting a DI -- and the time it takes to generate one -- will continue to drop to the point where the negative cutter will indeed become a rare find. Of course, when dCinema comes along there won't be any more negatives to cut, right?  |  IP: Logged

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