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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Kodak Admits that Film Uses Pixels! (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Kodak Admits that Film Uses Pixels!
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-06-2004 05:14 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A marketing person at Kodak once said:
"A single frame of film contains over 12 million pixels of information and the full range of human emotion."

Wow. No wonder my actors seem to be so flat and emotionless. I'm shooting with MiniDV! It just can't capture the emotion! I imagine I'm probably only getting 1% of the emotion I could get.

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 04-06-2004 05:39 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Did that person have a beard? You can't trust Kodak employees with beards. Especially if marketing is involved.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-06-2004 06:47 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If a grain is equal to a pixel, then each frame of 35mm motion-picture film has many more than 12 million of them! [Cool]

In a camera negative film, grains are randomly distributed and range in size from less than 1 micrometer to about 5 micrometers in the toe portion (shadow areas) of the fastest negative films.

Actually, that 12 megapixel figure comes from the general agreement that it takes at least a 4K scan to adequately capture all the information in a 35mm motion picture camera negative. Recent data indicates it may even be higher.

And I don't have a beard, and don't work in marketing. [Big Grin]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-06-2004 07:34 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
And I don't have a beard, and don't work in marketing.
Are you the originator of that quote, John?

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Wolff King Morrow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 490
From: Denton, TX, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted 04-06-2004 07:54 PM      Profile for Wolff King Morrow   Author's Homepage   Email Wolff King Morrow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What about movies by Pixar? I would think the film negatives of their flicks can't be any higher quality than the resolutions they used to render their movies to begin with. Or is there some form of analog interpolation process when transferring rendered media to film?

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John Pytlak
Film God

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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-06-2004 08:31 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Are you the originator of that quote, John?

Nope. It was one of the bearded guys in Marketing. [Wink]

BTW, my long-time tech Mark DeLettera (the original guy with the "digital beard" in the Kodak ScreenCheck ads) has just retired from Kodak. He and his wife (who shared Kodak careers) are building their dream retirement home in Venice, Florida. [Cool]

And he's three years younger than me! [thumbsup]

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Mike Olpin
Chop Chop!

Posts: 1852
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 04-06-2004 08:32 PM      Profile for Mike Olpin   Email Mike Olpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
What about movies by Pixar? I would think the film negatives of their flicks can't be any higher quality than the resolutions they used to render their movies to begin with.
I would agree with that statement. I don't know about the PIXAR's output resolution, but they have developed a laser recording system called "PixarVission". It offers higher resolution and better color reproduction than the CRT systems they used prior to 1998. If you take a look at the 35mm prints for Toy Story (CRT) and A Bug's Life (PixarVision), the difference is astounding.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 04-06-2004 08:38 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kodak LIGHTNING Laser Recorders:

http://www.cinesite.com/?1231&0&2421

quote:
KODAK LIGHTNING LASER RECORDERS

The Lightning recorder's technology is unique in that it uses red, green and blue lasers to expose negative film. The three lasers write directly to each color layer of the intermediate stock. This combination produces images of unparalleled sharpness and color saturation. The system's 10 bit (per color per pixel) log space retains all the film's enormous density range, while the lasers' extremely wide dynamic range ensures that the quality of the new negative is absolutely optimised
Kodak's laser recorder polygon has 16 facets and spins at 6120 revolutions per minute (rpm). The imaging lens is a high-performance, color-corrected f/theta lens which was custom designed for the recorder. The digital datapath of the Lightning laser recorder also includes color matrix and aperture correction boards. The color matrix is used to help eliminate color crosstalk on the negative. The aperture correction board applies a compensating correction for the combined optical losses of the film recorder ensuring that the full detail and grain structure of the film is preserved.
It is extremely important that the grain content in the recorded shot matches exactly that of the original film, so that when an added effect is edited into the finished sequence there is no discernible change in grain, a telltale sign of an added effects shot. Cinesite outputs to 5242 intermediate stock, which is virtually grainless (ASA 3) and has the ability to record the grain pattern from faster stocks so that the digital transformation is unnoticeable in the final edit. The lasers that the Kodak system uses are more intense than CRT's and are able to record out the full dynamic range of any other scanned original negative stock. At Cinesite the lasers are calibrated to give a maximum dynamic range of 2.046 density units to match the capability of the 5242 stock. When used with the Lightning film scanner, the Lightning laser recorder's output is nearly impossible to distinguish from the camera original

Cinesite filmout request form:

http://www.cinesite.com/img/Cinesite/Hollywood_Scanning/forms/filmout_request.pdf

Arrilaser recorder:

http://www.arri.com/prod/digital/arrilaser/index.php

quote:
frame size: 35mm full aperture, 4 perf.
nominal spot size: 0.006 mm (4K resolution)
0.012 mm (2K resolution)
image format: 4096 x 3112 pixels (4K resolution)
2048 x 1556 pixels (2K resolution)
dynamic range: 2.046 status M density above Dmin on intermediate filmstock
MTF: 40% @ 40 lp/mm; horizontal and vertical
film transport: 1000 foot and 2000 foot magazines supply and take-up separate
shuttle mode: > 5 frames per second
host computer: Windows XP platform
user interface: calibration function
job management
optional: visual control of images
network interface: Fast or Gigabit Ethernet, others optional
physical dimensions: size: 115 x 115 x 65 cm
weight: approx. 285 kg
electrical requirements: input voltage: 240 V
power consumption: < 800 W incl. host computer
frequency: 50 Hz, 60 Hz
operating environment: room temperature: 19 - 24° Celsius


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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 04-06-2004 08:38 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So what's that got to do with the 'number of pixels' in a frame of film. Just because the 'data' is the same, doesn't mean that it isn't represented on more than a single 'pixel'.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-06-2004 08:45 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kodak Cinesite scanners:

http://www.cinesite.com/?1231&0&1269

quote:
NORTHLIGHT SCANNER

Cinesite recently installed Northlight film scanners at both the Los Angeles and London facilities. This new generation of scanners, developed by FilmLight in London, utilizes an 8K tri-linear CCD array manufactured by Kodak to convert film at either three- or four-perforations of height per frame to digital files. Cinesite can now scan 35 mm color negative film at speeds around four times faster than the previous generation of machines making it more practical to convert nuances in colors, contrast and other details captured on the original negative to digital files.

quote:
KODAK LIGHTNING 35MM SCANNER

The Lightning film scanner, the finest system available for digital imaging, is the cornerstone of Cinesite's scanning capability. Featuring CCD sensor technology with three linear photosite arrays of 4,096 pixels each, the scanner handles the most common 35mm aspect ratios of Full Aperture (1024,2048 & 4096 lines resolution), Cinemascope and Academy (914, 1828 & 3656), and Vista Vision format (6144).
At 4000 lines, the Lightning scanner captures 38.9mb of data per frame from the standard 35mm format, Cinemascope captures 45.5mb, Full Aperture 51mb and Vista Vision exactly 100mb. The 4000 line resolution provides more than sufficient headroom for the level of image manipulation upon which our customers stake their reputations.
Each CCD array has a custom filter tuned to the dye densities of Eastman Color film, and is capable of capturing the full dynamic range of the images being scanned.

quote:
GENESIS PLUS 65MM SCANNER

Cinesite is excited about the tremendous growth happening in the large format, special venue industry. The Kodak Genesis Plus scanner brings the same dynamic and robust digital tools to the 65mm wide-screen filmmaker that are available with the 35mm Lightning scanner. The Genesis Plus handles 5, 8, and 15 perf formats.


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-06-2004 09:39 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Congrats to Mark DeLettera. May he have a happy retirement. [Smile]

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-06-2004 09:46 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, congratulations to Mark! Maybe he can grow a _real_ beard now. [Smile]

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Wolff King Morrow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 490
From: Denton, TX, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted 04-07-2004 02:56 AM      Profile for Wolff King Morrow   Author's Homepage   Email Wolff King Morrow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
KODAK LIGHTNING 35MM SCANNER

The Lightning film scanner, the finest system available for digital imaging, is the cornerstone of Cinesite's scanning capability. Featuring CCD sensor technology with three linear photosite arrays of 4,096 pixels each, the scanner handles the most common 35mm aspect ratios of Full Aperture (1024,2048 & 4096 lines resolution), Cinemascope and Academy (914, 1828 & 3656), and Vista Vision format (6144).
At 4000 lines, the Lightning scanner captures 38.9mb of data per frame from the standard 35mm format, Cinemascope captures 45.5mb, Full Aperture 51mb and Vista Vision exactly 100mb. The 4000 line resolution provides more than sufficient headroom for the level of image manipulation upon which our customers stake their reputations.

Edit:

So I'm wondering, are these scanners for when studios film natural scenes and wish to add digital effects? What about when the entire project is digital to begin with? How are the image files transferred to film?

Edit 2:

Nevermind. I went to the web site to learn more about how they operate. Very cool stuff!

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David M. Dorn
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: Hartford, CT USA
Registered: Mar 2004


 - posted 04-07-2004 10:38 AM      Profile for David M. Dorn   Email David M. Dorn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
IS 4K the breakthough point for digital cinema?
Dalsa, the Canadian chipmakeer ( imaging chips for the Mars rovers) will again be demonstrating a revised prototype of their 4K digital camera at the forthcoming NAB show. Thie "Origin" camera can record 4K, 4:4:4 RGB, 24fps with slow motion capablilities. The present stumbling block is the data rate, 1.2Gis/sec, higher than Infiniband can handle. However they hold a cinema use license for the L3 compression algoritym which is claimed to be lossless.
With more films going to Digit Intermediate because of CGI and Color timing needs, 4k is probably going to become more commeon in post production.
IF, and a big if, the the whole work flow, camera/DI/Release, can be held at 4K, it seems to me that Digital may finally arrive. At 4K on screen, the exhibitors would be able to see at stable technology (I know about Moore's law) to make the investment needed also assuming that the majors pass along some of the print and distribution savings.
BTW...Dalsa will be showing film and Origin digital sequences shot side by side at NAB. If any one on this list is attending pleaae post a report on the Dalsa presentation.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-07-2004 10:45 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Resolution is only part of the equation. Latitude, dynamic range, lack of aliasing artifacts, frame rate flexibility, archivability, etc. are also significant considerations.

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