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Author Topic: New technique for copying historic audio recordings
Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 07-23-2004 10:42 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Getting back into the groove
By Maggie Shiels
In San Francisco


Queen Victoria, Abraham Lincoln, Florence Nightingale and other characters from history may soon be able to speak again, as scientists perfect techniques to recover the sound from recordings that are far too delicate to be played.

In the corner of a California university laboratory, two men are battling against time to perfect a machine that will read old recordings - using special microscopes to scan the grooves - and software that can convert those shapes into sound. Their work could bring history to life.

The dulcet tones of movers and shakers from an earlier age could soon be heard once again, thanks to scientists Vitaliy Fadeyev and Carl Haber, who usually work with subatomic particles at the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. They are now planning to use that technology to give a voice to the great and the good down the annals of history.

Haber says the idea came to him by accident after he heard a radio report about the problems archivists have in preserving and accessing the voices and music of the past. He says a lightbulb went on in his head.

Why not adapt the precision techniques he and Fadeyev are using in a European-led project on particle physics, and apply it to old recordings? Made perfect sense to him.

"We stumbled on the idea and kind of made a connection," explains Haber. "To us, it's a wonderful way forward where basic research in the physical sciences can be made to work for another field of research or culture, which you might naively think was unrelated to particle physics. "Of course these are all the human endeavours and it's wonderful they can benefit each other. "

Russian-born Fadeyev agrees: "It's great that our very technical field can give benefits to other humanitarian activities."

Their first experiments involved extracting high quality sound from old shellac discs from the 1950s. The two scientists programmed a precision optical metrology system normally used to inspect silicon detectors, to map and photograph the undulating grooves etched on these old recordings. The result was a digital reproduction with all the scratches, bumps, dust and wiggles ironed out. Those images were then transferred to a computer and turned into a sound file to produce a clean version of the original.

The beauty of this technique is that nothing ever has to touch the actual recording, thereby avoiding any further damage to it. "It's like a fancy Xerox machine," quips Haber. Early success in reviving The Weavers' 1950 rendition of the classic Huddie Ledbetter song Goodnight Irene suggested the two scientists were on to something.

And the US Library of Congress, in Washington, DC, backs that view. It has given the scientists funding to perfect their technique and technology in the hope it can be used to access a huge archive. The library's files include 128 million items in formats ranging from tape to disc and from wax cylinders to tin foil cylinders.

In the past, the library has said that America's audio heritage is in danger. At least half of the wax cylinders used to record sound before 1902 are gone, because no one bothered to preserve them or because they weren't properly stored.

Fungal mould and insects have been the main culprits in silencing the voices of Americans from legendary eras such as the Civil War, the conquest of the western states, and the early days of slavery. "They have lost as many cylinders to the mould as to breakages and other causes, so mould is definitely one of the major destructors of this old media," says Fadeyev.

In the corner of another Berkeley lab, two men are battling against time to perfect a machine that will read old cylinders using special microscopes to scan the grooves and software to convert those shapes into sound.

In an early successful experiment, scientists John McBride and Christian Maul from Southampton University helped retrieve data from a well worn 1912 cylinder recording of a sentimental tune called Just Before the Battle, Mother. In Berkeley, it was translated into a sound file.

Haber says, "A stylus measures a groove by one point, essentially where the stylus sits. The data we take is taken at least a factor of ten if not at a higher sampling or resolution than the stylus measures. So if you have ten times as much information, you have that much more of a chance to recover something. And we could even maybe go 20 or 30 times and increase our chances even more so."

Both men are excited at the possibilities in being able to give voice once again to cylinders that are said to contain recordings of Queen Victoria, poets Alfred Tennyson and Walt Whitman, nurse Florence Nightingale, actress Sarah Bernhardt and Germany's WWI leader Kaiser Wilhelm.

Rumours abound that Abraham Lincoln even made a recording during the Civil War in 1863. "History is something that everyone shares. When you can see it or hear it, that real time experience of it happening in front of your can awaken a whole other dimension for people," says Haber.

Vitaliy believes breathing new life into recordings that have been thought unplayable might also change the way we view the past.

"I think it's hard to quantify, but it's certainly a great cultural and emotional imprint. The very first sample that we reconstructed was the Goodnight Irene song. It's thought of as a lullaby these days, but if you listen to the lyrics it's about adultery, murder and some other things. That immediately gives you the feeling for the cultural change between the 1930s, 40s, 50s, and these days."

Link

Sounds like a great idea, and one which could potentially be used to combat format obsolescence as well as issues with the physical condition of an original element, too. For example, if it would be possible to devise a way of producing a photographic record of the pattern of magnetic particles on a videotape, I guess you could potentially decode its content into whatever is the current format at the time, without having to worry about maintaining complex electromechanical hardware.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-23-2004 11:28 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, that's cool! [thumbsup]

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Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
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 - posted 07-23-2004 11:44 AM      Profile for Thomas Procyk   Email Thomas Procyk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WHOA! Teh Awesum! [Big Grin]

=TMP=

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 07-23-2004 03:55 PM      Profile for Mitchell Dvoskin   Email Mitchell Dvoskin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Eh? Technology to safely play old records goes back to the late 1970's, when a company called Final Technology perfected and marketed a needleless turntable, that read the grove with a kind of Laser/Sonar hybread. It was intended to be a high-end audio product, but the advent of CD's killed the market. Final Technology was bought by Hardon/Karmon, which marketed a very expensive version of this turntable to libararies and archives. There is no reason that this technology could not be modified to play cylinder and other non-standard groove recordings.

/Mitchell

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Dan Lyons
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Seal Beach, CA
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 - posted 07-23-2004 04:22 PM      Profile for Dan Lyons   Email Dan Lyons   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Eh.. nothing new here. Our friends at SMART used to be distributors for the laser turntable, something that has been around for years.
Smart Devices Laser TT

danny

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Brian Michael Weidemann
Expert cat molester

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From: Costa Mesa, CA United States
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted 07-23-2004 05:23 PM      Profile for Brian Michael Weidemann   Author's Homepage   Email Brian Michael Weidemann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The article leads me to believe the technology is a lot more advanced than merely a laser turntable. They're talking about things like wax cylinders. Reading a vinyl record groove in real-time with a laser is one thing, but they seem to be talking about using electron microscopes (the things that take those 10,000x black and white photos of a dust mite's left earlobe, that you see in science textbooks) to scan the groove, using algorithms to convert it to a crisp, high fidelity audio file (or as high fidelity as it was recorded), removing scratches and anomolies, and *poof*: WAX cylinder to WAV file ripping!

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 07-24-2004 04:55 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I certainly get the impression that the Californian researchers are trying to read far more information from the groove than this laser player. From the SMART page on the laser player, I get a sense that this was rushed into production while it was still really in the R & D stage, and by a small scale company which wasn't really able to service an international market. Pity - a reliable device using this principle could have several potential uses in movie sound preservation: rerecording Vitaphone records and the acetate discs used for some location newsreel sound during the '30s and '40s, for example. Both have a much softer playing surface than conventional shellac or vinyl, and any invasive means of reading them (i.e. a stylus) will run the risk of inflicting some damage, however carefully it's done.

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: West Milford, NJ, USA
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 - posted 07-24-2004 10:33 AM      Profile for Mitchell Dvoskin   Email Mitchell Dvoskin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Speaking as someone who owns a working Edison Cylinder Phonograph and a bunch of cylinder records dating back to the early 1890's, I have a few comments. First, the needle assembly on these phonographs are very light, unlike disk phonographs of the day. Second, the groove on these records is not used to move the arm foward, the phonograph mechanism does this, unlike disk phonographs of the day. These machines were designed to repeatedly play soft wax cylinders with minimal wear. The fact that I have wax cylinder records that play almost as well today, 110 years after they were manufactured, speaks volumes. Most original disk records from that time a would be very worn out.

The point of above, is that while the people who are developing this electron microscope grove reading technology are doing amazing work, they are taking the long road without any clear benefit. It would be far easier to just record these records, either directly or using a modified version of the existing laser TT pickup, and then doing de-hissing/popping. Understanding how these cylinder records were recorded, manufactured, and intended to be played, I'm not sure picking up more information from the groove will produce more acurate results. I tend to think all you will pick up is more defects and dust, which will then have to be digitally removed. I suppose I just don't see what benefit they hope to achieve over existing technology.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
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 - posted 07-24-2004 01:55 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tough crowd!

Undoubtedly a great deal of specifics were left out of that article. Somehow I think these guys are going to get a better result than a simple "play it and record it" approach.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 07-24-2004 06:26 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mitchell, your cylinder machine is hill & dale recording, right? Even flat disks sometimes used this system and I think that's probably more difficult to read optically than the side to side movements of a conventional track which the laser TT does. More importantly they are probably using the EM technology to get a complete picture of the side walls of the groove on conventionally oriented tracks. This would enable them to pick areas that have not be worn by styli.

One can easily imagine the results of these 3D scans (a considerable amount of visual data) shown on a computer screen and a technician watching as the computer draws a line across the image of the groove wall representing the trace of wall undulations that will be converted to audio--with the computer seeking out the place where the best HF response is--playback via virtual stylus. A snippet is played and maybe there is bit of noise at one point--a microscopic dust particle or a flaw in the shellac. Tech brings up the offending area on screen and manually reroutes the line a little higher or lower to bypass the problem. No need to interpolate or fake anything when there is good, real data there in the groove sidewalls.

Just speculation of course but I wanted to make the point that this could be much more sophisticated than simply optically scanning record grooves and turning that into sound (which itself is also an excellent idea).

The old 1950's Science Ficture Theatre TV anthology series had an episode where part of the plot involved the fact that sound pressure waves could affect how crystals are formed (think stalactites/stalagmites or just ordinary salt crystals from drying brine) thus in effect recording the sound. I think they were able to play back sounds of the destruction of Pompeii. It doesn't seem totally impossible that something like that could be true.

BTW, many of those were in color and when I saw them they had faded to a lovely magenta.

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
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 - posted 07-24-2004 07:19 PM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
This is just plain stupid! It's like setting fire to a building to get rid of a fly in the soup. WAY overkill!

Even Rube (Goldberg) would roll over in his grave on this horse shit!

>>> Phil

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
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 - posted 07-24-2004 08:25 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If it preserves what otherwise would be lost and/or brings up much finer quality on, say, Caruso, or recovers the actual voice of Abraham Lincoln* then it is well worth the effort and no doubt it will be streamlined in time.

Some might say that 3-strip photography and dye-transfer printing were too much trouble too.

* This claim of an 1863 Lincoln recording seems highly unlikely. Edison's invention dates from 1877 while Lincoln was assassinated in 1865. I'd settle for hearing from those who knew him personally.

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Matthew Bailey
Master Film Handler

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From: Port Arthur,TX
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 - posted 07-25-2004 12:59 AM      Profile for Matthew Bailey   Email Matthew Bailey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That reminds me of something called Digital Needle.
If I remember correctly,a middle eastern or hebrew student
found a way of scanning records with a flatbed or all in one scanner at high resolution & converting those images into sound.
Look it up in the search engines.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 07-25-2004 05:53 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Apparently the idea of a Lincoln recording isn't as far-fetched as it sounds. Quote from a posting on the AMIA list:

quote:
The fact is, many of us do believe that Abraham Lincoln made a recording in White House. Two decades before Thomas Edison invented the Phonograph, Leon Scott created the Phonautograph. It was a device designed to visually record sound waves for study. It recorded lines on a cylinder. I don't believe that it ever occured to Scott to play back the recordings. There are reports that he recorded Lincoln in 1863. If this recording were to turn up we could easily figure out how to play it back. Please keep your eyes out for it.
I've found another source to suggest that experiments in recording sound photographically were going on long before any viable means was in prospect of being able to play them back (i.e. De Forest's invention of the triode valve in 1907), but it doesn't mention Leon Scott (see Edward W. Kellogg, 'History of Sound Motion Pictures', J/SMPE vol. 64, June 1955). Neither does it cite any work going back as far as the mid-c19 - most of the experiments this paper talks about took place in the 1870s and '80s.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
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 - posted 07-25-2004 11:12 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, that would be awesome.

Unless it turns out he sounds like Phil.

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