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Author Topic: Remote Control Locomotives... When did these come about? Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-28-2004 09:57 PM                     On the way home from work one night I noticed this sign in an area where I cross the U.P freight yard. Although I have always had an interest in the railroads I am not a knowledgable "Railroad Geek" so to say and knew nothing about these. When did remote control come about for Diesels and why? Seems a bit dangerous to me. The freight yard here in SLC spans a good part of the north-south length of SLC proper and there are many crossings that now have these signs. Mark  |  IP: Logged Paul Mayer Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under! Posts: 3836 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Feb 2000 posted 12-28-2004 10:44 PM                        UP and BNSF have been using remote control power (in yards only, not on main lines) for about a year now. It's a cost cutting measure--why pay an engineer to be a hostler when you can get a brakeman or switchman to do the same work? They also claim a big reduction in crew injuries at yards using remote control. Here's some pics, courtesy of the Seattle Post Intelligencer: Caption: Switchman Wayne Reynolds moves trains from track to track at the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Stacy Street switching yard by remote control.  |  IP: Logged David Buckley Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 525 From: Oxford, N. Canterbury, New Zealand Registered: Aug 2004 posted 12-29-2004 01:33 AM                        quote: Mark Gulbrandsen When did remote control come about for Diesels and why? Remote control of locos seriously arrived about thirty odd years ago. Though you do read of odd attempts dating back decades further. Have a google for locotrol. The purpose was, of course, to save money. For the same reasons that platters and (being carful here) non-union "operatives" replaced unionized projectionists, for shunting trains around yards, unionized drivers were replaced by yardmen. Instead of the yardman waving the driver when to start and stop, he uses a remote control to actually move the train. Thats one Casey Jones less on the payroll. If you want to get all geeky about trains, head off to the film-tech of the train world, http://www.railway-technical.com  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 12-29-2004 03:54 PM                     Remote control or radio control dates back more than 3 decades, SP experimented with them on early GP and SD units. Say a train was made up with head units, some locomotives in the middle and some on the caboose end...the middle and tail end locomotives were rc controlled off the engineers throttle on the lead engine. The current bruhaha that the railroads are trying to pull is the complete elimination of train crews altogether...with the trains being completely rc controlled from a very remote point. There has been a lot of experimentation of this practice lately, but many communities are fighting this, especially with yards and mainline track within heavily populated communities. There have been many write-ups about this in publications like "Trains Magazine".  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-29-2004 05:37 PM                        Damn. I had no idea about any of this. Remote/automated control of passenger trains sounds like a really, really bad idea. When the train in question is only carrying freight, I don't really have an opinion. Still, it seems like there are plenty of safety issues with train operation that would best be addressed by a live operator aboard the train.  |  IP: Logged David Buckley Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 525 From: Oxford, N. Canterbury, New Zealand Registered: Aug 2004 posted 12-29-2004 05:58 PM                        Automated control is quite popular in commuter rail, examples include BART, the Victoria Line on London Underground (built 1967), and again in London the Docklands light Railway. The Victoria line is a particularly interesting example; the union rules say there must be a driver on the train, so for thirty plus years the driver just presses two green buttons simultaneously, sits back, the train does what it does, and does it again at the next station...  |  IP: Logged Mark Hajducki Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 500 From: Edinburgh, UK Registered: May 2003 posted 12-29-2004 06:06 PM                     All the automatically run passenger railways (that I know of) run on isolated tracks (without level crossings/ presence of non-automated trains). In depots they can switch to manual operation. The doors are still controled manually by the guard (as in standerd passenger trains) who then signals to the automation to start the train moving. It would be possible to design a fully automatic service like a lift (elevator) but most systems like to have some staff on board in case of emergency.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-29-2004 07:19 PM                     quote: Will Kutler There has been a lot of experimentation of this practice lately, but many communities are fighting this, especially with yards and mainline track within heavily populated communities. Thats why I was wondering as there are alot of major crossings along the yards in SLC and these trains travel thorugh fairly populated areas comming into and leaving SLC. There are also hazardous material freight cars on these trains as well. My next door neighbor is a conductor with the U.P. but he hasn't been around lately and I couldn't ask him about this. Mark  |  IP: Logged Stewart Anderson Expert Film Handler Posts: 105 From: Sandy, Utah /United States of America Registered: Aug 2003 posted 12-29-2004 07:35 PM                        I don't know anything about trains and I dont know much at all about wireless communication, but it seems like simple radio interferance could also prove to be a deadly problem.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 12-29-2004 09:48 PM                    There are 3 different things being discussed here: 1) Automatic operation of trains -- mostly limited to rapid transit operation. Always with a human supervising or initiating the movements or able to take over if needed. Examples include BART in SF/Oakland area, the DC Metro system, and many other transit systems. Very few freight operations such as the Black Mesa & Lake Powell which basically does nothing but convey coal from mine to power plant. Not sure if they do run automatically but that was certainly the plan. In many cases the control system aboard the train interacts with wayside equipment that indicate the safe speed for the train to get over the next track segment or initiate braking to stop the train at the next station platform. 2) Remote control of freight helper locomotives either at the rear or cut in somewhere in the middle of a long train. Also known as "distributed" power. This is simply a way for the engineer at the front to control these units by radio. Couplers and drawbars are less likely to fail when the power is not all at the front of the train. There are failsafe provisions for when communications are lost. 3) Remote control of a switch engine by someone wearing a belt mounted remote who will operate the manual switches, coupler cut levers, join air hoses etc. Instead of this person signalling an engineer aboard the locomotive via radio or hand signals this person can control the locomotive directly. Again there are failsafe provisions if communications are interrupted and also if the operator falls.  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 12-29-2004 11:16 PM                     I am aquainted with the second serior ranking engineer out of Tucson, and relied on him for advice and guidance. I was seriously considering appling with UP in lieu of pursuing my college degree (both railroading as well as my field of study are passions which would each grant me a comfortable living). Anyhow, this aquaintance advised to press on with my degree; it seems as though railroad management is using the new rc technology to push for a total elimination of train crews, and also from what I understand, are attempting to whittle down train crew salaries and benefits via arbitration.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-29-2004 11:45 PM                     quote: Will Kutler Anyhow, this aquaintance advised to press on with my degree; it seems as though railroad management is using the new rc technology to push for a total elimination of train crews, and also from what I understand, are attempting to whittle down train crew salaries and benefits via arbitration. Donno, My neighbor makes pretty good salary and great benefits for recently being hired on. He is conductor on the long trip type of freight handling though and is usually gone three to four days a week. So perhaps they are not cutting back too much there. I know quite a few "machinists" that are now relegated to feeding in bar stock to CNC machines so either industry has its down sides. Those that program and can do the set ups on CNC machines are the top dudes in the plants these days, the rest are just operators. I do think Stewart has a good point though as it would be quite easy for someone to comandeer a loco and or freight train with a more powerful transmitter than the waist mounted thing. Perhaps "Run Away Train- The Sequel" could be based this way.... Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 12-30-2004 09:04 AM                    Most of the large railroads are having large hiring programs for train service as there as they are severely short of crews as business has been booming. Train crews aren't going to go away anytime in even the distantly foreseeable future. Running on a fixed guideway, railways would be more easily adapted to full automation than other modes and it's possible to imagine a future where a train, probably assembled manually from individual cars (except for automatically loaded bulk commodity trains) is sent out on the mainline and drives itself to the destination yard. But that won't be happening anytime soon. As for switch engine remote control, here are some interesting videos. http://www.beltpackcorp.com/beltpack.html (Note: These products were recently spun off from Canac Corp.) It seems like this would be the platter of the railway switching yard in terms of productivity.  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 12-30-2004 08:22 PM                     When it came to crew shortage, UP really suffered when it took over SP! Not to mention shortages due to employee retirements, etc. I think I discussed this in another thread, but train crew hiring practices are always changing, so some parts of the interview are almost impossible to prepare for. The "givens" are: drug usage, English comprehension and basic RR knowledge, and the physical dexterity test consisting of sit-ups, curls and hand grip. One minute the RR might hire through DES Job Service, and the next minute they may hire directly. In my case, DES Job Service screwed up my interview appointments, so I lost out through no fault of my own. One minute the RR is interested in people with family ties to the RR, and the next minute they don't. Having RR employees and train crew as references on your job application might not count for much. One minute they are accepting anyone, and the next minute they want either a AAS in Railroading or some type of BS degree. In fact, there are several Engineers out of Tucson with Masters and Doctorate degrees! One minute they want people who are truly interested in railroading, and the next minute they disourage railfans... When you go to work for the "road", the pay and benefits are par-none, but it comes with a price; your life is theirs, as you are on call 24/7/365. Because railroading takes such a toll on family and personal life, they pay well as a means of retention. Furthermore, they are one of the few remaing "closed union" shops, and because of the railroads investment in its train crews (training, etc), they want people to stay for decades! Train crews have a high divorce rate, and I have personally known people who have quit in order to save their family.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Jones Master Film Handler Posts: 314 From: Geelong Victoria Australia Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-31-2004 06:44 PM                     Remote control of trains here in Australia has been in operation for some years.Queensland Rail use it on thier coal trains.4locos on the front of the train and usually 4 in the middle of the train and all controled from one crew in the leading loco,the system is called locotrol.A similar system is used in the iron ore country in West Australia's Pilbara region again 4 locos or more at the front and same in the middle or at the end,Im not sure if they still use it up there scince they have been reciveing thier new 5000hp GE loco's.The Australian Rail Group use remote control for some shunting operations but not all as does Pacific National in The state of Tasmania (the Island below Mainland Australia) they also have removed the engine and electrical gear out of an old loco refurbished it and added blocks of cement in the dissused engin bay for wieght installed a small diesil gennerator and a compressor fitted new control desk and call it a driving trailer.How it works there is a loco at one end of the train and the driving trailer at the other one man can drive the train from either unit which saves running the loco around the train at either end of its destination,the driver gets out with his remote unit and carries out shunting movements from the ground all to save costs.As is the problem every where recriuting new staff is a problem here as well as the process is fairly intense as they are after the right person so they say, aptitude tests,psychological assesment,intense medical and a high education standard(didnt know you need a diploma to drive a train)The industry here is saying the will need 1000 new drivers over the next 2 years as older ones retire and the if the rate of bussiness keeps increasing as they say it will and by judging the number of trains i see every day it certainly is. Steve  |  IP: Logged

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