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Author Topic: How would San Francisco cope?
Peter Berrett
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 602
From: Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-06-2005 07:34 AM      Profile for Peter Berrett   Author's Homepage   Email Peter Berrett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi all

Like many of you I have been appalled at the images of New Orleans flooding onto our tv screens (apologies - no pun intended).

It makes me wonder what will happen when the Big One finally hits San Francisco. I visited there in 2000 and noted that there were many old buildings which might fall down in an earthquake.

Is SF similarly unprepared? Will the major buildings fall down a la 9-11? What would happen if a category 8 earthquake hit San Francisco?

Being from Australia I don't know what steps, if any, SF have taken to mitigate a possible disaster. Can informed readers make some comment on the issue?

That aside one can't rule out entirely that such a quake might occur in the near future. How would the US cope with another disaster of similar magnitude in such a short time?

The following site gives some tips on how to cope with an Earthquake

LINK

What is worrying is that included in the tips is the following text:

quote:

DURING THE QUAKE

Indoors

Stay inside

DROP, COVER, AND HOLD ON! Move only a few steps to a nearby safe place. Take cover under and hold onto a piece of heavy furniture or stand against an inside wall. Stay indoors until the shaking stops and you're sure it's safe to exit. Stay away from windows and doors.

**Never take an elevator

If you are in bed, hold on, stay there, protect your head with a pillow

This sounds suspiciously like the famous 'Duck and Cover' advice.

cheers Peter

[ 09-06-2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Adam Martin ]

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 09-06-2005 09:23 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I hate to say it but people in San Fransisco will be better prepared than the people in the areas listed below.

The New Madrid Seismic zone lies within the central Mississippi Valley, extending from northeast Arkansas, through southeast Missouri, western Tennessee, western Kentucky to southern Illinois. Historically, this area has been the site of some of the largest earthquakes in North America. Between 1811 and 1812, 4 catastrophic earthquakes, with magnitude estimates greater than 7.0, occurred during a 3-month period. Hundreds of aftershocks followed over a period of several years. The largest earthquakes to have occurred since then were on January 4, 1843 and October 31, 1895 with magnitude estimates of 6.0 and 6.2 respectively. In addition to these events, seven events of magnitude >= 5.0 have occurred in the area. Instruments were installed in and around this area in 1974 to closely monitor seismic activity. Since then, more than 4000 earthquakes have been located, most of which are too small to be felt. On average one earthquake per year will be large enough to be felt in the area.

The New Madrid seismic zone is so named because the town of New Madrid, Missouri was the closest settlement to the epicenters of the 1811-1812 quakes. At that time, St. Louis and other major cities in the central U.S. were sparsely settled. At least 3 of the series of earthquakes were felt throughout much of the U.S. and as far away as Quebec. The potential for the recurrence of such earthquakes and their impact today on densely populated cities in and around the seismic zone, has generated much research devoted to understanding earthquakes. By closely monitoring the earthquake activity, scientists can hope to understand their causes, recurrence rates, ground motion and disaster mitigation. The probability for an earthquake of magnitude 6.0 or greater is significant in the near future, with a 50% chance by the year 2000 and a 90% chance by the year 2040. A quake with a magnitude equal to that of the 1811- 1812 quakes could result in great loss of life and property damage in the billions of dollars. Scientists believe we could be overdue for a large earthquake and through research and public awareness may be able to prevent such losses.

New Madrid Seismic Zone

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 09-06-2005 11:51 AM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Peter Berrett
Is SF similarly unprepared? Will the major buildings fall down a la 9-11? What would happen if a category 8 earthquake hit San Francisco?
The majority, if not all of the skyscrapers and 'major buildings' in SF (and LA for that matter) are designed to withstand a MAJOR (10+ on the Richter Scale) quake with minimal damage. It would have to be nothing short of apocalyptic to bring them down.

quote: Peter Berrett
Being from Australia I don't know what steps, if any, SF have taken to mitigate a possible disaster. Can informed readers make some comment on the issue?

That aside one can't rule out entirely that such a quake might occur in the near future. How would the US cope with another disaster of similar magnitude in such a short time?

We made it through the Loma Prieta quake in 1989 without the mess that is happening in NOLA. Ditto for the Northridge (L.A.) quake in 1994. The preparedness was there, the cities weren't destroyed.

-Aaron

[ 09-06-2005, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Sisemore ]

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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 09-06-2005 04:53 PM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The California Emergency Response people seem to be on the ball. Everything around here is engineered to take quakes.

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 09-06-2005 05:48 PM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
The magnitude 6.7 Northridge earthquake was at 4:31 AM on January 17, 1994. I remember it well. [Roll Eyes]

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Clint Koch
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1435
From: San Luis Obispo, CA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 09-06-2005 06:15 PM      Profile for Clint Koch   Email Clint Koch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The USL, Inc. manufacturing facility was less than 1 mile from the epicenter during the 94 Northridge quake. My home was about 3 miles from the epicenter. As Phil said "I remember it well".
I truly believe it was much larger than the magnitude 6.7 the "official's" told us it was. [Roll Eyes]

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Bill Gabel
Film God

Posts: 3873
From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 09-06-2005 06:43 PM      Profile for Bill Gabel   Email Bill Gabel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Clint Koch
I truly believe it was much larger than the magnitude 6.7 the "official's" told us it was.
I lived in Santa Monica, California when it hit (on the Westside of Los Angeles). When it became light I drove over to the GCC Sherman Oaks 5 Theatre (in the Valley). In the booth on the twin side the JJ fell over and was resting on a vent. The other projector fell over and was resting on one of the decks of the platter. On the other side of the street the tri-plex all three machines were flat on their sides. No film was dumped on the floor.
The these cities do have good plans when it comes to earthquakes.

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 09-06-2005 08:16 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My bad. 1994 it was. [Razz]

-Aaron

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Ron Yost
Master Film Handler

Posts: 344
From: Paso Robles, CA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 09-08-2005 08:08 PM      Profile for Ron Yost   Email Ron Yost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's a reeeealy long article that appeared today in The Los Angeles Times regarding our (California's) state of preparedness for major disaster:

--------------------------
California Earthquake Could Be the Next Katrina By Jia-Rui Chong and Hector Becerra Times Staff Writers
Thu Sep 8, 7:55 AM ET
Copyright 2005 The Los Angeles Times

U.S. Geological Survey seismologist Lucy Jones remembers attending an emergency training session in August 2001 with the Federal Emergency Management Agency that discussed the three most likely catastrophes to strike the United States.

First on the list was a terrorist attack in New York. Second was a super-strength hurricane hitting New Orleans. Third was a major earthquake on the San Andreas fault.

Now that the first two have come to pass, she and other earthquake experts are using the devastating aftermath of Hurricane Katrina as an opportunity to reassess how California would handle a major temblor.

Jones, scientist-in-charge for the geological survey's Southern California Earthquake Hazards Team, and other experts generally agree that California has come a long way in the last two decades in seismic safety.

In Los Angeles, all but one of 8,700 unreinforced masonry buildings — considered the most likely to collapse in a major quake — have been retrofitted or demolished. The state spent billions after the 1994 Northridge quake to retrofit more than 2,100 freeway overpasses, reporting this week that only a handful remain unreinforced.

Despite these improvements, however, officials believe that a major temblor could cause the level of destruction and disruption seen over the last week on the Gulf Coast.

More than 900 hospital buildings that state officials have identified as needing either retrofitting or total replacement have yet to receive them, and the state recently agreed to five-year extensions to hospitals that can't meet the 2008 deadline to make the fixes. More than 7,000 school buildings across the state would also be vulnerable during a huge temblor, a state study found, though there is no firm timetable for upgrading the structures.

And four Los Angeles Police Department facilities — including the Parker Center headquarters in downtown — worry officials, because they were built to primitive earthquake standards and might not survive a major temblor. Only two of the LAPD's 19 stations meet the most rigorous quake-safe rules.

"We could be dealing with infrastructure issues a lot like New Orleans," Jones said. "Our natural gas passes through the Cajon Pass…. Water — three pipelines — cross the San Andreas fault in an area that is expected to go in an earthquake." Railway lines are also vulnerable, she said.

A catastrophic temblor at the right spot along the San Andreas could significantly reduce energy and water supplies — at least temporarily, she and others said. Researchers at the Southern California Earthquake Center said there is an 80% to 90% chance that a temblor of 7.0 or greater magnitude will strike Southern California before 2024.

"We aren't anywhere close to where I wish we were" in terms of seismic safety, Jones said.

Seismologists are particularly concerned about a type of vulnerable building that has received far less attention than unreinforced masonry.

There are about 40,000 structures in California made from "non-ductile reinforced concrete", a rigid substance susceptible to cracking. This was a common construction ingredient for office buildings in the 1950s and '60s, before the state instituted stricter standards. Few such structures have been seismically retrofitted, officials said.

Seismic safety advocates have also recently lost some major battles in Sacramento. The state rejected a proposal from the Seismic Safety Commission in the wake of the 2003 San Simeon earthquake to force owners of unreinforced masonry buildings to post warning signs. In that quake, two women died when the roof slid off of a two-story Paso Robles brick building where they worked.

Last week, the Legislature sent to the governor's desk a bill that encourages local governments to develop retrofitting programs for "soft story" wood-frame apartment buildings.

There are an estimated 70,000 such structures in the state, and experts worry that they could sustain major quake damage, because they often have tuck-under parking and lack solid walls at their bases.

The danger of this kind of construction was illustrated in the 1994 collapse of the Northridge Meadows apartment complex, in which 16 residents were killed.

There are other potential safety gaps as well.

Although Los Angeles, Long Beach, Pasadena and several other cities have reinforced almost all their masonry buildings, about a third of such structures across the state remain unprotected, said Frank Turner, an engineer with the Seismic Safety Commission.

A state study published last year on hazard reduction paints a sobering picture of California's earthquake danger. About 62% of the population lives in a zone of high earthquake danger, including 100% of the population of Ventura County, 99% of Los Angeles County and 92% of Riverside County.

Since 1971, there have been at least 13 earthquakes of magnitude 6.0 or greater in the state, and research conducted after the 1989 Loma Prieta quake in the Bay Area found a 62% probability that at least one earthquake of magnitude 6.7 or more would strike the Bay Area before 2032.

"We're pretty confident we have some of the best buildings in the world here, but … there are always going to be losses, because these are extraordinary events," Turner said.

Still, Southern California's geography could help prevent a catastrophe on the scale of that in New Orleans.

Because the Los Angeles region is so much larger than the Louisiana city, it is difficult to conceive of a disaster — "short of an A-bomb" — that would blanket the whole city, let alone the whole county, in ruin, said Lee Sapaden, a spokesman for Los Angeles County's Office of Emergency Management.

Earthquakes tend to do the most damage closest to the epicenters. The 1994 Northridge quake, for example, damaged a large swath of the San Fernando Valley as well as parts of Hollywood and the Westside. But areas farther to the east and south, such as Long Beach and Orange County, saw little damage.

A large quake in the Valley would probably still allow emergency supplies and rescuers to reach the area from other locations such as the San Gabriel Valley and South Bay, Sapaden said.

Emergency crews would have better mobility than those in New Orleans, he added, because even if freeways were wrecked, aid would probably be able to get through the vast majority of areas on surface streets. "Here in Southern California, Riverside, San Bernardino, Orange and Santa Barbara counties would help us out, just like we would help them," he said.

One of the biggest concerns of seismic safety officials is the fate of hospitals.

The 1971 Sylmar earthquake pushed Olive View Medical Center a foot off its foundation, causing the first floor to collapse, killing three patients and a hospital worker. The 1994 Northridge quake knocked 23 hospitals temporarily out of service.

After that quake, the Legislature passed a law requiring that hospitals retrofit buildings to withstand a major temblor or replace them with new ones. About 78% of hospitals have at least one building deemed at risk, said Jan Emerson, spokeswoman for the California Hospital Assn.

But hospitals, many of which are fighting budget problems, have balked at the price tag — estimated at $24 billion for 2002-2030 — and in many cases have successfully pushed Sacramento to delay the retrofitting deadline. The state has already granted about 200 requests for extensions to make the necessary repairs by 2013, according to a state document.

Safety officials said more work is also needed at schools.

A 2002 state study found that more than 7,500 school buildings across California are expected to "perform poorly" in a major temblor.

The Los Angeles Unified School District has completed seismic upgrades to nearly 2,000 buildings, spending $222 million on the effort, according to Richard Luke, director of design for the district.

But the district has not finished upgrades on 600 portable buildings and will look at an additional 239 buildings identified by the Division of State Architect as possibly performing poorly during a major quake.

Jones of the geological survey and Turner of the Seismic Safety Commission believe that one worst-case scenario would involve a massive temblor on the San Andreas fault around where major utility lines run, possibly compromising water and power supplies.

"We should not be at all surprised if something similar to Hurricane Katrina mirrors itself in California," Turner said. "There have been lots of articles written about the failure of levees in the [Sacramento-San Joaquin] Delta, the loss of drinking water in California. This is just the tip of the iceberg."

About 60% of Southern California's water is imported from outside the region in three major aqueducts that cross the San Andreas fault, making them particularly vulnerable to major earthquake damage.

One branch of the 444-mile California Aqueduct, which carries water from the delta, virtually sits on top of the fault for a few miles near Palmdale. A second aqueduct from the Colorado River crosses the fault near Beaumont. And the Los Angeles Aqueduct, which transports snowmelt from the eastern Sierra, runs across the San Andreas in a mountain tunnel between Lancaster and Santa Clarita.

Southern California water managers say they've made progress in recent years building local reserves they could turn to if they lost water from one or more of the transport systems.

With such efforts, "we feel even more confident we are able to provide sufficient water to sustain us during an earthquake," said Debra Man, chief operating officer of the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California, the region's main water wholesaler.

Jim McDaniels, chief operating officer for the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power's water system, said that if disaster struck, the DWP could double its groundwater pumping within the basin and draw from its four big local reservoirs.

Major gas lines also come into Southern California over the San Andreas at several points, including at Indio, Palmdale, the Cajon Pass and the Tejon Ranch. Still, officials at the Southern California Gas Co. expressed confidence that the system could withstand a strong earthquake, noting they have been upgrading the pipeline for years.

Another open question is whether the major quake would cause damage to fire stations, police headquarters and facilities of other emergency agencies, possibly slowing their response. A state study found that many of the 1,300 emergency operations buildings were constructed before strict quake building standards were enacted in 1986, and that only a portion of those had been retrofitted.

At the LAPD, the only four facilities to meet the most recent and rigorous "essential building" standards are the department's newest: the West Valley and Mission police stations and two 911 dispatch centers.

Yvette Sanchez-Owens, head of the department's facilities management office, said she is most concerned about three stations built in the 1960s: Rampart, Hollenbeck and Harbor. Police officers at the Harbor station in San Pedro have been relocated to trailers while a new station is built; officers could be moved out of the Hollenbeck station in Boyle Heights sometime this fall as preparation for construction of a new station begins.

As for Parker Center, it already sustained significant damage during the Northridge earthquake. It is also scheduled to be replaced, but not for several years.

"It could be in real trouble," Sanchez-Owens said. "It's definitely not built up to standard."

------------------
Ron Yost

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 09-08-2005 08:19 PM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Daryl and/or Joe, PLEASE use your Magical Condensing Machine to reduce Ron's LOOOOOOOONG post to something that's to the point so this dumbass can read it.

Thanks in advance...

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-08-2005 08:58 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Magic Condensing Machine
The world is coming to an end. Kiss your ass goodbye.

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Peter Berrett
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 602
From: Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-09-2005 04:39 AM      Profile for Peter Berrett   Author's Homepage   Email Peter Berrett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WARNING: The following post contains mention of matters that may cause terror, fear to readers. If you have a heart condition or are otherwise susceptible to being traumatised please read no further.
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quote:
Here's a reeeealy long article that appeared today in The Los Angeles Times regarding our (California's) state of preparedness for major disaster:
... (Snip)


[Terrifying sound effects from Psycho]

Ah yes what but what protection will you have if Mariah Carey makes "Glitter 2"? Would Mariah Carey's career, California or anywhere else for that matter survive that level of major disaster?

[/Terrifying sound effects from Psycho]

Oh dear ... I've just realised I'm in the potential disaster zone (as we all are). I shall just have to remember to 'Duck, Cover and Stay Away from the movie theatres for a couple of months!

cheers Peter

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 09-09-2005 11:06 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been in two earthquakes... all before I even set foot in California; one in Kentucky about 1984, and one in Massachusetts just 4 or 5 years ago. As Darryl mentioned, Kentucky is affected by the New Madrid fault, but I think that was also the cause of the Massachusetts quake, which I nearly slept through. I kept banging on the wall because I thought my neighbor was having rough sex or something. [Roll Eyes]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-09-2005 11:28 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I've been in two earthquakes... all before I even set foot in California; one in Kentucky about 1984,
I remember that one Tim, and we felt it in Chicago too!! There was also one in the late 60's that I believe was also centered down in that Kemtucky area and I remember that one causing the dinning room light fixture to sway a bit... as far away as Chicago.

Would SF survive... There would be alot of devestation but the west coast is prepared for that sort of thing... its happened before and it will happen again.... I could imagine they would tell FEMA to "blow it out theor ass" were they not doing what was needed of them. Personally I think its high time to dismantle FEMA amnd send all the weenies on theor way all together.... this is the type of stuff that the National Guard was really meant to handle anyway.

Mark

Mark

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 09-09-2005 12:00 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If memory serves me right, I am referring to the 1991 California earthquake, or one of the major ones. Anyhow, I was stationed at Norton AFB, CA (San Bernardino).

I was asleep when that one hit, and when it hit it, the sensation felt like I was on a waterbed!

Anyhow, it hit on my weekend and a friend and I were slated to go to Six Flags. We thought that of course the rides would be shut down. But SUPRISE! All rides were up and running that day.

Cheers

K

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