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Author Topic: Digital Projection for Independent theaters Steven J Hart Master Film Handler Posts: 282 From: WALES, ND, USA Registered: Mar 2004 posted 03-18-2007 08:46 AM                        Was there any news at Showwest concerning outfitting independent theaters with Digital Projection? Are any of the players providing equipment interested in talking to the little guys, or are they just concerned about the big corporate deals? I've been wondering for quite a while about how long we will be able to continue to get film prints. Steve Hart  |  IP: Logged Darryl Spicer Film God Posts: 3250 From: Lexington, KY, USA Registered: Dec 2000 posted 03-18-2007 11:42 AM                    Most likely film prints will continue to be made until every theatre is converted. It's going to be a number of years before that happens. It's not a snap your fingers and everything is done process. The three big majors have more than 14,000 screens to convert in the future. That's about half the screens left to be converted. It's going to take some time to get it all done. Overseas will probably be completed before half of the U.S. is completed. That's because film companies want to eliminate the huge import costs for shipping film to other countries.  |  IP: Logged Steven J Hart Master Film Handler Posts: 282 From: WALES, ND, USA Registered: Mar 2004 posted 03-18-2007 12:57 PM                        quote: Darryl Spicer Most likely film prints will continue to be made until every theatre is converted. I may just be a pessimist, but I doubt the studios will continue producing film prints when the time comes that all major theater chains have converted to digital and there are a few thousand small-town mom'n'pop screens still running film. Steve  |  IP: Logged Darryl Spicer Film God Posts: 3250 From: Lexington, KY, USA Registered: Dec 2000 posted 03-18-2007 01:39 PM                    Then those small town mom and pop's can sue them for failure to provide content in that medium until they can convert. But like I said that may be quite a few years down the road. I can't see why they wouldn't produce them since it would only be a drop in the bucket in cost for them since they will be saving all that money not mass producing them. Plus as the mass production slows down I would think the print quality would get better.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-18-2007 02:03 PM                     And as mass production slows down the individual lab costs will go up  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 03-18-2007 04:27 PM                     In 15 years we will speak again! I doubt they will be able to bring in Digital Cinema even until then. Although they made a lot of progress, Digital Cinema is doomed to the technology flick. It will never be finalised. Every time something new will come up and it will NEVER reach Film Standard. FILM RULES  |  IP: Logged Bill Enos Film God Posts: 2081 From: Richmond, Virginia, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 03-18-2007 07:22 PM                     Demetris, you are undoubted correct, D-Cinema will likely not develop to the image quality possible on film because some individual or committee will declare that enough time and money has been thrown at it and orders will be issued to go with the technology of that moment. Once a significant quantity of equipment is in place it will be very difficult to obsolete it and changes will be limited to updates and upgrades to the original technology. Pretty much the same as has happened with film over the last 100 years.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 03-18-2007 07:41 PM                        Bill: the difference is that FILM has slowly evolved with changes only made at the speed required by the end user. Film stock improvements occurred at no cost to the end user. Even Dolby films will still play on Western Electric Universal bases with a red led. D-Cinema (or as I call it: theatre-TV) requires a system-wide improvement every time something is adjusted. It is the difference between evolution and revolution. Louis  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-19-2007 08:17 AM                     quote: Louis Bornwasser D-Cinema (or as I call it: theatre-TV) requires a system-wide improvement every time something is adjusted. Not really quite true.... the best example being the jet black coating on the DLP Imaging Chips. This sort of thing does not require any change to anything else to implement and it improves apparent contrast noticably. Other improvements you WILL see in the very near future are in new series of prime D.C. lenses by both ISCO and Schneider designed specifically for D.C.. Power supplies, hard drives, semiconductors.... I could go on and on... these cam improve but are not visually apparent like the difference between the same gearused in an X-L.. one made by LaVezzi or one by Wolk. Mark  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 03-19-2007 11:09 AM                     quote: Demetris Thoupis Every time something new will come up and it will NEVER reach Film Standard. Unfortunately a lot of movies shot on film and shown via 35mm film prints have no better image quality potential than any 2K D-Cinema movie. Most CGI work is done in 2K resolution. More and more movies are using digital intermediate techniques rather than the traditional color timing lab methods. The vast majority of digital intermediates are rendered at only 2K. Both CGI and DI work as a serious bottleneck on image detail. When something like a 2048 X 858 image is laser recorded back out onto film, the detail of the original 35mm elements is not going to magically return. The film print is nothing more than an analog version of what used to be a digital image with limited resolution. Add to that the growing trend of movies getting shot on video rather than film. The image detail bottleneck that was there with 35mm is removed. That's only because the originating format is from a lower quality source. But hey! It's "digital!" It's going to take 4K to 8K production work-flows to restore the capability we're now largely doing without when it comes to 35mm film production on a lot of major releases. The bean counters like 2K, possibly because it's pretty similar to HDTV and seems good enough for most, modest sized movie theaters. 2K can be rendered faster and faster (and cut costs). With the film business resembling nothing more than a video business as time passes I'm wondering if widespread adoption of 4K standards will ever occur at all.  |  IP: Logged Joel N. Weber II Expert Film Handler Posts: 115 From: Somerville, MA, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 03-19-2007 11:33 AM                     If you look at how the resolution of computer monitors has evolved, it's hard to imagine that we won't eventually see 4K and probably even 8K theatrical projection. The ``Hi-Res'' graphics mode on the original Apple II in 1977 did 280x192 (if you even had enough RAM in your computer to use Hi-Res mode); 30 years later, roughly the same dollar amount (or quite possibly less) will buy you a computer with a 1920x1200 monitor. The color depth and resolution is also vastly improved on newer computers; if I'm remembering correctly, Hi-Res mode was a hack based on NTSC where one lighted pixel by itself would be color, and exactly where it was would determine which color, and two horizontally adjacent pixels would turn white. A modern computer will give you 24 bits for each pixel. However, there's certainly a good chance that home theater will have resolution equal to theatrical 4K rendering costs ought to keep coming down with time, and maybe producers will eventually decide that the extra cost is worth it. Especially once 4K becomes widely available in the home. The more interesting question, I think, is whether 's contrast ratio will ever match film.  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 03-19-2007 11:59 AM                        quote: Joel N. Weber II If you look at how the resolution of computer monitors has evolved, it's hard to imagine that we won't eventually see 4K and probably even 8K theatrical projection Pardon my simplistic view of all this, but if there are less than half-a-million potential locations worldwide (sorry... don't remember where that number is), isn't this a colossal money-loser for the investors? Seems that the introduction of 4k just dilutes the pool. Why would you want one very expensive piece of equipment when major upgrades always seem to be "just around the corner"? If a manufacturer hasn't made enough money from versin "A" to pay off the phone bill, what motivates them to do 4k, or more? I guess I still don't see the economics in this technology... at least as it applies to the theatrical market. At what point will the studios tire of supporting "the rollout"... and who's really going to pay the big bux for one of those projection systems then?  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-19-2007 12:22 PM                        Yeah, what happens when the current crop of digital projectors wears out in 5 to 7 years or less? THe studios aren't going to pay for another "conversion" because they won't be saving any money then. Will the Carmikes of the world be willing to shell out the kind of money they're not having to pay this time? Edit to answer my own question: No, what will happen is the bigger theatres will "trade in" their old equipment, which will be "reconditioned" and sold to smaller theatres at too-high prices while the big boys get shiny new equipment. Personally I hate this scenario because I've hardly ever bought any reconditioned equipment. I prefer the peace of mind and reliability I get with new stuff. But, that's probably the way it's going to play out in the smaller places. [ 03-19-2007, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Mike Blakesley ]  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 03-19-2007 01:43 PM                     That's just it. I have strong doubts any wide-spread conversion to 4K will ever happen. Several factors are cutting against it. There's little use currently for any 4K-based devices in consumer electronics and computing. High end computer graphics displays is about it. Disc based movies are maxed out at 1080p, just under 2K resolution. The only hope 4K has of hitting homes anytime within the next several years is by way of video on demand downloads via a much more sophisticated Internet. That situation will have most electronics companies not pushing for anything past 1080p and 2K for quite a long time. Then there's the previously stated situation in film-making where 2K is "good enough," even with computing technology that can manage 4K with little trouble. The first generation of DLP digital projectors, with their 1280 X 1024 maximum resolution (not to mention questionable video encoding standards) were very inferior to the new systems being installed. I don't think there's any danger to Hollywood studios pulling the plug on content for 2K systems as long as Hollywood stays very stuck on doing nearly all its CGI and DI work in that same resolution. Even if Hollywood did finally switch much of its processing to 4K they would still have a tough time trying to get rid of 2K projection systems, after all they're one of the parties having to pay for all that hardware. That's another reason why I have doubts about 4K becoming the de facto standard. Actually, out of devices that can be replaced, I think it would be far more likely to see server/playback units switched out from time to time. Bigger hard discs and ever changing data security formats may force the issue.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-19-2007 09:56 PM                     quote: Mike Blakesley Yeah, what happens when the current crop of digital projectors wears out in 5 to 7 years or less? Mike, Ya need to go back in that other thread... where ever it is... and read my proposal regarding using on screen ads to pay the lease on D-Cinema Systems. D-Cinema equipment fits the 5 or 7 year lease program like a glove... Get rid of it after those time periods and get the all new latest stuff and just continue on with the lease. You'll never be stuck with obsolete equipment! Not only that the major leasing company we work with who also manufactures D-Cinema equipment will taylor a lease to your budget, high/low cash flow periods, and time frame, there are other lease options and I could go on and on like service contracts and major replacement parts coverage. Mark  |  IP: Logged

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