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This topic comprises 7 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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Author
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Topic: Opinions on Conceal Carry Permits?
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-28-2007 02:11 AM
Anyone have opinions they would like to share about conceal carry permits? This is not meant to spark any political debate over gun ownership. I'd really like to hear from any F-T members that have carry permits or gun owners without a permit.
FWIW, I do visit a couple different firearms related forums. Some questions regarding carry permits can be met with macho sounding responses, "just get one, bitch!" I guess I'm looking for some different perspectives.
I've been seriously considering getting a conceal carry permit for more than a year. But up to this point I've only talked about it with close friends who are on the fence about the issue as well.
I have legitimate reasons for getting a permit. Aside from that, Oklahoma is a "shall issue" state. Anyone with a clean record who fulfills the requirements (and pays around $200 for various fees) gets issued a 5-year license. This week, and especially today, the notion of getting a permit has weighed heavier on my mind. We've had some really disturbing shit happen in my town lately.
Yesterday afternoon (Friday), two young women, ages 18 and 20, were shot to death in what the police think was a home invasion robbery. The victims were in a nice house in a nice neighborhood on Lawton's west side, murdered in the middle of the freaking day. The police don't have any suspects at this point.
From Sunday through Wednesday, Joshua Muller, a suspect wanted for double murder in Tulsa was on the loose, eluding police east of Lawton near where my aunt lives. Thankfully Muller was finally caught and taken back to Tulsa. FYI, last Saturday night, the suspect shot up a SUV in what turned out to be a case of mistaken identity. Some people beat up Muller's wife at a bar. He saw a SUV in a parking lot that he thought held the culprits. So he riddled the vehicle with semi-auto rifle fire. Muller wound up killing two children and critically injuring a third child inside the vehicle. Muller fled to relatives in Lawton. His family called the cops, who ended up chasing the guy through trees, brush and creeks for days.
This past March a street gang related murder happened near Lawton High School within a half mile of my home. The shooting occurred in early afternoon while kids were still in class.
Lawton, OK isn't known for being a very dangerous town. Relatively speaking it still isn't anywhere near as rough as some of America's real combat zones. Nevertheless crime rates here are rising at an uncomfortable pace.
In 2004, Lawton had only 2 murders. Last year the city had 9 homicides. If this year's pace continues we could end up beating the 1973 record of 18 murders. In 2006, Lawton had a record number of rapes, 82, a 2-fold increase from the 41 reported in 2005. The rates of robbery, larceny and assault are all showing significant increases.
The most plausible theories on why the crime rate is spiking upward in Lawton is street gangs are growing and users of illegal drugs have grown desperate. Meth used to be very plentiful in SW Oklahoma. Many users made their own dope. The crackdown following the murder of OK State Trooper Nick Green changed that. The only meth on the street these days is stuff imported from Mexico. A lot of people have switched over to using crack cocaine, which is more expensive. The violence now happening in Lawton reminds me a little of how New York City was in the late 1980s and early 1990s.
On the issue of home defense citizens in Oklahoma don't need a permit for having firearms in the home. But any gun owner would be advised to know the self defense laws for their respective state.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-28-2007 12:52 PM
If I understand Bobby's post correctly, he's especially worried about two incidents (the burglary/shooting and the wanted criminal who shot at the SUV) in which there was no previous link between the attacker and the victim, i.e. they were targeted entirely at random. Furthermore, these incidents both took place in areas that had previously been thought of as safe. So while, as you say, one can normally keep out of trouble by staying away from dodgy areas and criminal circles, that didn't save the lives of these victims.
It's a valuable point, I think: and if I were living in Lawton, I'd be worried too. A couple of years ago there was a fatal stabbing about 300 yards from my flat, at the junction of Bootham and Exhibition Square in York. A yob from one of the sink estates outside town had gone drinking, staggered out of a pub with various substances in his system (not just alcohol), asked a complete stranger in the street for a cigarette, and when he discovered that the stranger didn't have any, stabbed him to death there and then. The guy was a teacher, and left a widow and two children. The spot where this happened is right by the ancient city walls, so all the tourists go there. It's not considered a dodgy part of town by any means.
The worst part is that when they caught him, he claimed diminished responsibility on account of being under the influence of drugs, was only charged with manslaughter and was sentenced to eight years (which means that he'll actually serve around four).
Gun ownership for private citizens is effectively illegal here: kneejerk reactions in response to the Hungerford and Dunblane shootings resulted in the law being tightened to the extent that apart from farmers with shotguns, it's virtually impossible for a private citizen to get a firearm licence any more.
FWIW, my own position on this is that banning private citizens from having guns only works if the law enforcement services are effective enough for citizens not to need to make their own arrangements. In Britain this clearly is no longer the case: in particular, since the post-Dunblane legislation, the number of illegal firearms in circulation has increased fivefold. One particular problem has been the Czech Republic's entry into the European Union - apparently they manufacture about a fifth of the world's handguns, and now they can be transported to Britain with no meaningful customs inspections. Only yesterday this incident took place, and we now read stories like this in the papers almost daily. We're basically in a situation whereby professional criminals can get hold of guns cheaply and easily, but honest citizens cannot.
Personally I'd feel very uneasy about carrying a gun - probably because I've always lived in a society in which private gun ownership is virtually unheard of. I don't believe I've ever seen or handled a real one. My biggest fear would be, in the heat of the moment, making the wrong decision and shooting someone who didn't pose a serious threat to me. Whatever Bobby's decision, I hope that the police in Lawton are able to get the violent crime increase under control. From both low level crime (e.g. groups of teenage yobs pestering women traveling alone) to incidents like the stabbing in Exhibition Square, it makes our lives a misery and needs to be dealt with by the law enforcement services we pay our taxes for.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-28-2007 12:54 PM
My reasons for considering a permit:
1. I work in a large manufacturing business located in an industrial area of town not far from a low income neighborhood. There isn't a lot of vehicle traffic simply passing by this business during the day. Fairly often, I'm the last person to leave the office (I have to lock it, set the alarm, etc.). Sometimes I'm leaving well after dark. On some occasions, I'm there on the weekend working alone. There's quite a few valuable items in the office and the adjacent manufacturing buildings.
2. I drive a vehicle some would find desirable to steal or car jack. It's not a Toyota or Honda. But this is Oklahoma and sporty pick up trucks are popular. Half the time I have valuable equipment in the truck with me (photography equipment, my own notebook computer or a company notebook, etc.). Sometimes I'm using that photography equipment to take early evening or night time photos of electric signs. At times that draws unwanted attention.
3. There's that very slim chance I could be in the wrong place at the wrong time and would like to be prepared just in case. Armed robberies in banks and convenience stores are on the rise across the nation. That's especially true here in Lawton. If I'm eating in a restaurant and some nut job decides he wants to execute everyone in the building, I'd at least like some chance to defend myself and others in the building.
4. I'm concerned about leaving the gun at home. I certainly don't want any would-be burglar to get it and then use it on a crime spree. It would be harder for any burglar to steal the thing if I have it with me all the time. My Sig P226 came with a heavy duty cable lock (you feed it through the mag funnel and ejector port) and orange plastic firing pin block. I'll probably get a gun safe soon (especially if I buy any more weapons), but even those can be hauled out of a house unless they are bolted through the floor.
quote: Leo Enticknap
FWIW, my own position on this is that banning private citizens from having guns only works if the law enforcement services are effective enough for citizens not to need to make their own arrangements.
Having been robbed before, I know from personal experience that the police do not come to the rescue and prevent specific crimes from happening.
The reality is the police are there to take interviews, collect evidence and investigate after the fact. They work to catch the suspect after he has committed the crime. Whether you survive the crime or not is out of the control of police. Ultimately private citizens can only depend on themselves to protect themselves. There simply isn't enough police to function as 24 hour body guards for everyone all the time. That's one of the fundamental reasons why I believe law-abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves.
Sometimes the police get lucky. But more often than not even when they get a lucky break and catch the criminals quickly, the crime has already happened. Just look at the home invasion robbery-murder that took place this week in Connecticut. One of the victims was able to signal a bank teller when the robbers took them there to make a big withdrawal. The cops wound up catching the bad guys. But they caught them too late. The husband escaped with serious injuries. His wife and two daughters were murdered.
While I believe in self-protection, I also strongly believe anyone who is going to buy a handgun should take some self defense and safety classes.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-28-2007 01:19 PM
Points taken, especially in relation to the police being mainly there to detect crime after the event rather than prevent it from happening in the first place. By 'effective enough', I meant in the sense of deterrence, i.e. (i) have a high success rate in catching offenders, and (ii) that offenders, when caught, are sentenced appropriately. In other words, that the people doing this shit will know they are very likely to get caught, and that if they are caught, they can expect a sentence which makes it not worth their while committing the crime in the first place.
If I were in Bobby's situation, I think I'd want the gun.
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Hillary Charles
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 748
From: York, PA, USA
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 07-28-2007 01:26 PM
No we cannot count on the police to protect us before the fact.
Before I decided to own and carry a gun, my own life was threatened by a person with a history of mental illness and gun ownership. He was a regular customer where I worked, and became fixated on me. He started to leave phone messages. When someone from another store in my mall sought me out to warn me about this threat, I called the police.
I was told emphatically that they can do nothing until he acts. The stalker law at the time only considered people who had prior relationships, and that was definitely NOT the case with this scumbag and myself. It was then and there that I realized I was responsible for my own protection, and took all the legal steps toward gun ownership. Before that, I was quite anti-handgun, but like the Reagans with stem-cell research, it often takes a personal experience to change one's mind on the subject.
Most people are under the impression that a handgun must always be fired in self-defense. A very reputable study by Dr. Gary Kleck discovered that between 1 and 2 million people prevent a crime against themselves merely by displaying their gun to their potential attackers. Those numbers are far higher than the statistics of those accidentally shooting themselves or losing their guns to their attackers.
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