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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Maybe 4k has a real chance after all (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Maybe 4k has a real chance after all
Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
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 - posted 10-19-2007 11:03 AM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm a little surprised to see this press release. Maybe AMC is trading in all their SDDS units for credit.

I found the following release at AMC to install 54 Screens of Sony 4K

Sony to Install SXRD 4K Digital Cinema Systems in Four New AMC Theatres
A Total of 54 Screens to Use 4K Technology

Sony SRX-R220 Sony Electronics is equipping four of AMC Theatres' new movie theatres with CineAlta™ SXRD™ 4K digital cinema systems.

Sony will provide 54 SXRD 4K digital cinema systems at new AMC theatres in Dallas (12 screens); Indianapolis (14 screens); Riverside, Calif. (16 screens); and San Diego (12 screens). Work will begin next month, with the theaters scheduled to open in December.

The theaters will feature a combination of Sony's SRX-R210 10,000 lumen* model and the SRX-R220 18,000 lumen* unit. The systems, which were specifically designed for theater applications, will be paired with Sony's LMT-100 Media Block servers.

"This inaugural effort with AMC Entertainment is the latest example of the exhibition and motion picture industry's continued adoption of 4K digital cinema technology," said John Scarcella, president of Sony Electronics' Broadcast and Business Solutions Company.

Sony's digital cinema team will work with AMC to provide technical support for the systems and operations management at all four locations.

"Our goal with SXRD digital cinema technology has been to deliver unmatched levels of resolution, contrast and overall image quality," said Gary Johns, a Sony vice president in charge of its Digital Cinema Systems Division.

The 4K digital projection systems for the new AMC theatres are designed to be compliant to the Digital Cinema Initiatives specification – providing 2K and 4K playback/projection, interoperability with currently installed systems and full-wrap security. They will be linked to Sony's Screen Management System.

The motion picture industry recently announced that it is working with major cinematographers to start production on 4K originated features, and the industry has accelerated development of 4K cameras in recent months. Johns said that Sony also intends to build a complete system of digital cinematography production equipment, including 4K acquisition, storage and infrastructure solutions.

* ANSI Lumen is a standard measuring method of the American National Standards Institute IT7.228. Since there are multiple methods of measuring brightness, the way that brightness is specified will vary among manufacturers.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 10-19-2007 12:03 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Of course AMC isn't about to be outdone by a small chain like Muvico. The other thing is that the big three AMC, Regal, and Cinemark have all agreed that 4K is not yet ready, that was put in print in some article earlier this year but I don't remember where. At 190K a booth 4K won't get too far in other circles very fast. Prices still have to drop. Also, the big three have secured billions for conversion from Wall Street investors so all they have to do is write a check for what ever route(s) they decide to go.

P.S. You can bet that in this sales agreement AMC has stipulated that Sony sell them all the remaining 4K units in their warehouse when the 4K thing goes bust just like they did with Sony & SDDS!

Mark

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Scott Norwood
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 - posted 10-19-2007 12:33 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Have there been any actual 4k releases derived from 4k scans of the camera negative, or are all the 4k units now being used to show upconverted 2k material?

Do upconverted 2k releases look better when projected with the Sony unit vs. 2k DLP? (I have yet to see a 4k presentation.)

Perhaps 4k could be the "digital 70mm" equivalent? In a way, that would be kind of sad, but I do like to think that there is a market for a high-end product, even if it isn't even close to the resolution of actual 70mm film.

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Lyle Romer
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From: Davie, FL, USA
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 - posted 10-19-2007 12:55 PM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Scott Norwood
Have there been any actual 4k releases derived from 4k scans of the camera negative, or are all the 4k units now being used to show upconverted 2k material?
I'm pretty sure Spiderman 3 was scanned at 4K (effects still done at 2k) and I think the DaVinci Code also.

quote: Scott Norwood
Perhaps 4k could be the "digital 70mm" equivalent? In a way, that would be kind of sad, but I do like to think that there is a market for a high-end product, even if it isn't even close to the resolution of actual 70mm film.
Although it won't look nearly as good as 65mm originated 70mm projection, based on extrapolating 2k digital projection (since I've never seen 4k) I think it has the potential to look almost as good on screen as a 35mm originated blow up to 70mm. Not looking as good as something 65mm originated is irrelevant since the only things being originated on 65mm anymore are IMAX films.

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Brad Miller
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 - posted 10-19-2007 01:24 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Am I the only person who is giving Sony's system ZERO interest??? I mean I am all for 4K projection, but after SDDS and all those amazing quantities of 8 channel releases...nope, not me.

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Scott Norwood
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 - posted 10-19-2007 01:41 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Agreed about SDDS.

Still, I take the position that we all care about high-quality theatrical presentations. If the 4k Sony unit is capable of producing a better image than the 2k DLP units, then shouldn't we all support this? (Not as an alternative to film, but as an alternative to 2k DLP.)

A large installed base of 4k units will a) encourage film distributors to make releases available in 4k and b) encourage the development of a 4k DLP chip (or other competing 4k technology).

If Sony goes bust or otherwise prematurely ends support for the 4k unit, I don't necessary see a problem since a) it is not my money that is tied up in an unsupported technology and b) it might just encourage exhibitors to think twice about a wholesale conversion from film to digital projection. Since I happen to like film, I don't see that as a problem. If Sony does support these units properly, then at least we end up with better-looking images than if everyone bought the 2k DLP units.

If it were my money, I wouldn't consider buying any of the digital projection equipment that is presently on the market for presentation of feature films. The technology is still immature and I have no doubt that next year's models will be better and cheaper than what is available now. Since no distributor is yet trying to force a conversion, I don't see any need for theatre owners to rush into this just yet.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 10-19-2007 04:26 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There exists a 4K scan of Dr. Strangelove that ran at the Seattle Symphony Hall screening room.... where a Sony 4K projector also exists. Would they do any less for Stan the man.....?

quote: Brad Miller
Am I the only person who is giving Sony's system ZERO interest??? I mean I am all for 4K projection, but after SDDS and all those amazing quantities of 8 channel releases...nope, not me.

Brad... Now you're starting to sound like me. Now why do you hate Sony... please explain for Mike Heenan...

Mark

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Brad Miller
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 - posted 10-19-2007 04:39 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
It's not so much Sony, it's the fact that this industry for the most part (meaning there are exceptions), does not care about quality. Just look at the wildly varying level of quality in prints alone. Some release prints are bouncy, bouncey, bouncey while others are amazingly steady, and the offending prints can generally be traced down to a particular lab or labs, yet the studios keep printing there! Likewise the depots don't inspect any more and there is no penalty for a theater trashing a print, so again the studios don't care how bad their movies look (because a print that is returned in bad condition means that theater was presenting that quality to their audience). And this is just picking on the studio end of things. We all know what problems lie in various theaters in regards to quality, or the customers that continue to accept worse and worse presentations. Everyone talks it up on their press releases, but few actually deliver what they claim.

As such, TRUE quality in this industry hardly matters anymore. 2K is plenty fine for the task with the attitudes out there. To most people, it's all about money, not quality. Ultimately that attitude will be the demise of movie theaters.

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

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 - posted 10-19-2007 04:55 PM      Profile for David Zylstra   Email David Zylstra   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is another 4K option coming . . . . . last estimate I heard was a 4K chip in 3-4 months and a working prototype for field testing in an additional 7-10 months . . . . . if they can make it work it sounds like it could perform much better than all current solutions. The company is Photonica - they used to be Panorama Labs but they formed a new company and bought out the Australian side.

Link to Cinematech blurb about Photonica

I find it laughable that Sony's solution to DCI encryption and FIPS requirements is to lock the projector and server in a large steel box.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 10-19-2007 08:39 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Brad Miller
it's the fact that this industry for the most part (meaning there are exceptions), does not care about quality.
All quality in the cinema died along with Michael Todd. But then he was way before your time.

Mark

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Floyd Justin Newton
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
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 - posted 10-19-2007 09:14 PM      Profile for Floyd Justin Newton   Email Floyd Justin Newton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark--

You're not whistling dixie there! Mike Todd was THE KING of
SHOWMANSHIP and no one today can even approach his "quality"
of screen presentation.
[thumbsup]

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Brad Miller
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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
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 - posted 10-19-2007 09:40 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Nah Mark, now you just sound like an old coot. There was quality in my time, just not in recent years.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

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 - posted 10-19-2007 10:02 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sony should forget about making any money off 4K theatrical and instead use it as a powerful marketing tool to promote SXRD to the masses. Sell the projectors to exhibitors at cost, or even a loss, while using some kind of flashy SXRD promo snipe at the front of every feature to boost the sale of SXRD TVs. And of course this all assumes the Sony projectors & servers are reliable and that Sony properly supports them.

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Tristan Lane
Master Film Handler

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From: Nampa, Idaho
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 - posted 10-20-2007 01:15 AM      Profile for Tristan Lane   Email Tristan Lane   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: the article
Sony's SRX-R210 10,000 lumen* model and the SRX-R220 18,000 lumen* unit.
My opinion:
The numbers above are an indication of why Sony is going to fall behind. 18,000 lumens is only suitable for 40ft or smaller screens.

Some key points about these projectors:
To achieve 18,000 lumens, two high wattage xenon lamps must be used. Meanwhile, Christie and Barco are pumping out projectors that produce 30,000 lumens or more using a single 6.5K lamp. SXRD technology just isn't efficient with the light. The LCOS chips absorb much of the heat from the lamps, so cooling is an issue.

Also, Cinelink2 is a TI technology that isn't licensed to be used with the Sony Product. Therefore, Sony used their own proprietary media block (aka: server) that is incorporated into the projector unit. This had to be done to comply with DCI since the encryption is handled differently than in a normal DLP based setup. This adds cost to the projector, and eliminates the ability to select a different server (if a 4K server became available from a 3rd party)

I just don't see the point in spending the money on a projector that has the resolution to fill an 80 foot screen, but lacks the light to do so.

These key points are the reason that I've not had much interest in the product.

I've heard nothing but negative things about these in the field, and the AMC-Sony thing has been floating around here for a while. I seem to remember reading an article like this quite a while ago.

Also, there's still the lingering weariness in regards to how Sony supported the SDDS product.
quote: the article
* ANSI Lumen is a standard measuring method of the American National Standards Institute IT7.228. Since there are multiple methods of measuring brightness, the way that brightness is specified will vary among manufacturers.
This is choice. What is this statement for??? I get the feeling that the intention of including this was to make the reader think that "Oh, maybe the other projector companies are measuring their light in a way that makes it higher" [Roll Eyes]

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Allison Parsons
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 - posted 10-20-2007 02:11 AM      Profile for Allison Parsons   Author's Homepage   Email Allison Parsons   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I swear when I read the title I thought it said "Maybe 4K has a REEL CHANGE afterall." Now that would have been interesting.

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