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Author Topic: Sad: Youtube has more resolution than cinemas
Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted 07-10-2010 11:10 PM      Profile for Julio Roberto     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You know there is something wrong when, of all things, even Youtube has more resolution than your (average) last Hollywood film in your local theater.

This industry should've moved to 4K straight or, at least, much shortly after digital.

But no ... they had to sell of that obsolete 2K equipment first ...

Anyway:

Youtube debuts 4k streaming video

quote:
Yeah, 1080p - like its 720p predecessor - was cool back in the day. But now Google has taken YouTube to the next level with a full 4K of HD video goodness.

"At 4096 x 2304 pixels, 4K is over four times the size of 1080p," YouTube engineer Ramesh Sarukkai explained in a blog post.


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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-10-2010 11:19 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the video on that page is an example, they're full of shit!

Download the Flash file and it comes out to only 854x480. Barely a little better than a DVD can make. It's only a 500 kbps bitrate.

There ain't no fuckin' way that video is 4K.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

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From: 퍼항시, 경상푹도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted 07-10-2010 11:26 PM      Profile for Chris Slycord   Email Chris Slycord   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's a comment on one of the 4k vids
quote:
Bah. Their 720p is still lower bitrate than DVD's, why not improve that instead of going to even higher resolutions. Oh, because its less marketable than just saying we have 4X the resolution of 1080p. Right.
You can see macroblocking many places on the 4k shots, this is clearly compressed pretty far. Probably lower bitrate than a 720p blu-ray.


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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
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 - posted 07-10-2010 11:27 PM      Profile for Julio Roberto     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You need to switch the image size to "original" to get the 4K version of it.

And buy a 4K monitor/projector [Razz]

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Randy Stankey
Film God

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From: Erie, Pennsylvania
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 - posted 07-11-2010 12:07 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, I did that too. But their "Hi-Rez" button is not apparent. You'd think that it would be more visible.

Why, the fuckin' vuvuzela button is more visible!

Like Chris said, even when switched to 4K mode, there was still banding and macroblocking all over the place.

I would rather watch a well-compressed video at 640x480 than to watch a 1,000,000 pixel wide image that was badly done.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-11-2010 12:36 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Ditto to all the comments here. It is the COMPRESSION that kills the image, not so much the resolution.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-11-2010 07:31 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay...lets say that compression was not an issue and they have an honest to goodness 4K image...

Just how big a monitor would you need to actually resolve all of the pixels in a 4K image? And how big would it need to be for your to actually be able to tell that it was a 4K image instead of a 2K or smaller image?

It isn't going be any computer monitor I've seen. Actually, the only 4K monitors I've seen are from Astro Systems and they are about $60,000 and are about 5-feet wide.

Steve

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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted 07-11-2010 08:53 AM      Profile for Julio Roberto     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sharp was selling some nice 5' wide 4096x2160 screens for about $50k.

But, of course, you would want a 4K projector to get a good sized screen, specially since they can be $20k cheaper, too, like the Sony SRX-S105.

[beer]

But the point is, if TODAY, when most movie theaters in the world aren't even 3D nor 4K (they may be film, but coming from a 2K intermediate ....) I can walk into any Best Buy/Mediamarkt store next door and walk out with a 65" 3D (basically 2K) screen or I can buy a $30k 4K projector and playback videos from ... of all things ... youtube (the "paramount" of low res videos ...)

....

and I can do that TODAY!!!!! while theaters are still installing as we speak 2K Nec/Barco/Christie in an industry that is "ready" for 4K (i.e. servers, masters, standards ...)

Just imagine 10 years down the road what people can have in their homes.

First, they said that "3D was an experience you couldn't get at home". Then that "4K is a resolution you can't get at home". But the truth is that you can get both of them easily and not too expensively TODAY and we are STILL moving to ... 2K?

Needless to say there is little advantage to 3D or 4K at home and that that's better experienced in a large screen. But even the size of the screens are becoming an issue with larger-and-larger screens at home, brighter cheap home projectors, etc.

This industry needed to move from "film" to "Imax 3D" and instead moved from film to ... "2K"? (=basically same as HD).

Anyway ... I don't want to have to be the one defending the image on movie theaters as a lease for a Barco/Nec/Christie expires 10 years from now against the new stuff that will be out there ...

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20100403005024&newsLang=en

quote:
Blu-ray Disc Association Announces Additional Format Enhancements

LOS ANGELES--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 03, 2010 -

The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) today announced two new media specifications that use Blu-ray Disc technology to provide targeted functionality for commercial and consumer applications. The specifications for BDXL™ (High Capacity Recordable and Rewritable discs) and IH-BD (Intra-Hybrid discs) are expected in the next few months.


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-11-2010 12:03 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I guess, technically, you could buy a 70mm projector for your home for decades...still the best movie format...ever...so what is your point?

If you have the money...you could always have what the theatre has.

Japan has their 8K think they have been showing and writing about...but again...just what does one have to do to realize the benefits of it?

Steve

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Randy Stankey
Film God

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From: Erie, Pennsylvania
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 - posted 07-11-2010 01:33 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When are people going to realize that technology is not the answer?

Regardless of what technology we come up with today, there will be something 10 times better in just a few years. It'll be a never ending battle between innovation and obsolescence.

What is really important to the movie theater business is customer experience.

I'm not talking about "presentation" where theaters are made to look all spiffy and "modern" looking. I'm not talking about "customer service" where all the employees from the box office to the concession stand are supposed to be smiling and happy all the time. I'll even give you leeway on how well-tuned your projector and sound system are!

Important things are that customers don't have to wait in long lines and that they can easily find a seat in a theater that's not dirty with sticky floors. They should be able to buy a ticket, walk in, buy good tasting snacks, sit down in a clean seat and watch a movie that starts on time and stays in focus.

Most people couldn't tell the difference between a picture projected from a 2K digital, a 4K digital or 16mm film. It really makes no difference HOW they get their movie and their popcorn. All that matters is that they get what they paid for.

For a long time, I have said that buying the latest and greatest home theater system isn't worth the money.

A 42-inch flat screen cost how much? $1,000 to $1,500?
Add a home theater stereo system for $500.
The Blu-Ray is going to cost another $150
Right there, you've spent $1,500 to $2,000. We haven't even tallied up the cost of movie rentals and microwave popcorn.

If you went to the movies every Saturday night for a year, you could spend nearly $30 per week for the price you paid for that home theater.

You get to walk in, sit down, watch your movie and eat your popcorn. You don't have to turn on the TV or Start the DVD player. You don't have to pop your own popcorn. Cripes! You don't even have to clean up your empty popcorn bags! You can just leave them on the floor!

If movie theaters did what they are supposed to do, we wouldn't have this stupid technology race.

I don't care what technology people dream up. If they don't give the customer what they are paying for, no electronic whiz-bang gadget is going to save the movie industry.

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
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 - posted 07-11-2010 03:05 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But then there are lots of people like my brother, that will never see a movie in a theater again, because they don't like or want to sit still and quiet for two hours or so. They like being able to smoke, and to drink, and to put their feet up, and to talk back to the screen, and most importantly, pause so they can go pee whenever they want to. True, they don't notice the difference between VHS and HD, let alone the differences between the various sound formats or between any video format and 35 or 70mm film (and they don't care to either - that's for the AV geek/losers). Those people (and there are a lot of them) are lost to the theater business, probably forever.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

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From: Erie, Pennsylvania
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 - posted 07-11-2010 03:39 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, then, the wise theater owner might do well to make a theater where people can smoke and drink and behave in a more relaxed atmosphere.

It doesn't matter what kind of projector is used to produce the movie if people don't want to come to the theater in the first place.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
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 - posted 07-11-2010 05:17 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So, exactly how would the average Youtube user shoot something in 4K? How many people have 35mm motion-picture cameras and film scanners or 4K video cameras? Almost none. And how many viewers have 4K monitors? Again, essentially none. How many Youtube users even have 1920x1080 monitors? Probably a very small minority. Actually, I bet that most users don't even have 1600x1200 monitors.

In any case, the average Youtube user isn't likely to care about quality anytime soon. Look at all the crap that was shot with a telephone--not even an SD video camera.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

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From: Forsyth, Montana
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 - posted 07-11-2010 07:24 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Randy Stankey
the wise theater owner might do well to make a theater where people can smoke and drink and behave in a more relaxed atmosphere
Actually, the home is probably the only place people will be able to smoke pretty soon, at least in this country. It's already that way in Montana -- you have outdoors, your house, or your car and that's it.

Your previous post about customer experience is dead-on, Randy.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

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From: 퍼항시, 경상푹도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted 07-11-2010 07:47 PM      Profile for Chris Slycord   Email Chris Slycord   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mike Blakesley
Actually, the home is probably the only place people will be able to smoke pretty soon, at least in this country. It's already that way in Montana -- you have outdoors, your house, or your car and that's it.
Everywhere I've been that has these bans has it legislated that smoking is banned in "open-to-the-public" facilities. So there might be some wiggle room by saying that your facility ISN'T open-to-the-public (as in members only) and to become a member, you'd have to sign an agreement that points out that smoking is allowed.

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