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This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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Author
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Topic: Are Apple products really worth it?
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Daniel Schulz
Master Film Handler
Posts: 387
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 07-27-2013 01:27 PM
A bit of a tough one. Let's divide this into two separate discussions:
1) Q: Is a MacBook worth the price premium? A: I think so. A similarly-specced Widows laptop usually winds up not too far off the Mac in price, and the Apple laptops are beautiful little machines. I know quite a few people who are using them as Windows laptops. In other words, they haven't bought into the cult of Mac in terms of the OS and the rest of the Apple content ecosystem, but they just make damn fine laptop computers, even if you are running Windows.
2) Q: is the whole Apple content system worth buying into (Mac OS, the iTunes store, iPods, AppleTV). This one's tougher, as the alternatives are getting very very good, and many people (myself included) object to Apple's "walled garden" approach, in which you have to use iTunes to manage your content, it all works better with premium-priced Apple hardware and they make it hard to get and play content through other sources. If you hate DRM, want to Stick It To The Man, would rather maintain your own file libraries, etc. then you may not want to jump into the Apple camp. OTOH, if you just want an efficient way to consume media, whether by buying downloaded files, streaming your music library, renting TV or movies - it's tough to beat the ease-of-use and general slickness of the Apple setup. Anything you can do with Apple can be done cheaper with some combination of Linux boxes, Android devices & Windows machines, but the Apple setups really are just plug 'n play.
Don't sweat the missing optical drives or ethernet - the Apple branded external DVD drive is $79, and others are cheaper, If you need ethernet you can get a Thunderbolt/Ethernet adapter.
Regarding the iPad - I still think it's hard to make the case that anyone *needs* one, but if you have the $$$, they are the world's greatest internet consumption device (email, Facebook/Twitter/Pinterest/what-have-you, watching video from your lap, etc.)
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Mike Heenan
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1896
From: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-27-2013 03:18 PM
They're great products. Yes they're usually higher priced; however if you spec out a Dell or Sony for instance, you'll see that the price isn't as high as some would have you believe for a comparable machine. It depends on what you need it for... if you're just doing general web browsing, emails, etc, then there's really no need to get more than a cheapo $500 windows laptop. If you get into the tablet scene, don't waste your money on android, definitely go with the iPad, you won't regret it. I'm still not sold on a tablet replacing a desktop or laptop though. As for phones, the iphone is awesome, but I wish the screen was larger (I have the 5). I've only used a Samsung S3 which I hated compared to my 4S last year.
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Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 07-27-2013 03:25 PM
Yes, worth it. As already said, similarly spec'd PCs are going to run you the same amount of cash, but I've preferred OS X to anything for some time now. My first Mac, a 2006 MacBook is still running as a server and does that pretty well. My 2010 MacBook Air was running like a champ, but I'm planning an upgrade. I paid about $999 for it 3 years ago and I'm getting just over $300 back from a recycling program for it. They really hold their value.
I've been thoroughly happy with the ecosystem too. It all works seamlessly for me.
And then of course, there is the OS. OS X is great for getting stuff done. Windows, especially 8, has become so bloated that it's just not enjoyable to use anymore. I do still keep a virtual machine of XP on my Mac for certain projects.
The current line of Mac laptops are the best they've ever produced hardware wise, even if you choose to run Windows on them via bootcamp. Great machines.
AJG
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-27-2013 03:39 PM
From what I gather, one of the drawbacks with Apple stuff (especially their laptops) is that it is not easily upgradeable and repairable, and that the few upgrade options that do exist are very expensive.
For example, I have an HP dv6910ea laptop, originally purchased in January 2009. Since then I have expanded the memory from the OEM 2gb to 4, replaced the CD/DVD optical drive with one that can also read BDs, added a Bluetooth module, replaced the OEM 250gb hard drive with a 1TB one, replaced the processor fan when it started to get noisy, replaced the keyboard when the legend on one or two keys started to wear out and upgraded the battery to a four-hour one. The total cost of all these DIY aftermarket repairs and upgrades was probably around $300 over 2-3 years. In contrast to that, a Macbook-owning colleague paid GBP220 (around $300) simply to have a failed optical drive replaced. On a typical PC laptop that would cost about $50 if you did it yourself or $100 if you took it to a repair shop.
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-27-2013 03:48 PM
I think it depends on whether you need to run Apple software. I do because of my work, so I don't have much choice. I have two 13 inch Apple laptops, a late 2006 white Macbook purchased in January 2007 which runs system 10.5.8 and Windows XP under Bootcamp, which is what I'm typing this on, and a Macbook Pro (not Retina Display) purchased last October which runs System 10.8.4, and also Windows 7, a Windows 8 evaluation licence, recently expired, Windows XP and Fedora 18 under VM-Ware Fusion Pro.
Reliability of the older machine has not been good; I've had to pay out quite a lot in repairs and parts, including a new top case and keyboard which I had to get from an Ebay seller in the States, because Apple could no longer supply it. I've had no problems with the Pro so far.
The quality of the Apple displays is good, but the glossy screen can be a problem if you've got windows or lamps behind you.
Connectivity is an issue for me, neither machine has a serial port, which I use a lot, but many Windows laptops also lack one now, and USB-serial adapters work. Using Thunderbolt dongles for Ethernet, Firewire etc. is more problematical as most machines have only one Thunderbolt port and Thunderbolt hubs do not seem to be available (yet), so while you could connect a dongle to a monitor connected to the Thunderbolt port you could not connect two dongles, Firewire and Ethernet for example, at the same time. This was one reason why I bought the non-Retina Pro, because it still has these ports.
Both of my machines support 802.11n, the older one needed an enabler download, which I think cost $1.50, though I don't use wireless a great deal. Both also have optical digital audio out, which can go direct into a Dolby DMA8 plus. Both can also provide DVI-D output which many cheaper laptops cannot, and which is useful for feeding digital cinema systems.
Leo, you are correct; on the latest Apple laptops almost nothing is user-replaceable or upgradeable. The RAM is soldered to the motherboard, and the battery is glued to the case, so both have to be replaced, together with the keyboard and trackpad, I think. My six and a half year old Macbook still has its original battery by the way, and it is user-replaceable, though new ones are over a hundred pounds.
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-27-2013 04:05 PM
I have a Bondi Blue iMac which I bought in 1999 which still works perfectly. I replace the hard drive just for maintenance purposes and also because I wanted more space. I maxed out the memory and, except for keyboard and mouse replacements when they wore out, I did nothing to it. That computer runs as well, today, as it did when it was new. It was a good, fast computer when it was new but, compared to computers today, it's old and slow. If I tried to run an application like FinalCut, the computer would come to a grinding halt. That is my only complaint about that computer but that really isn't the computer's fault.
I also have a snow white iBook which I bought in 2000. I also replaced the hard drive and maxed the memory. I have replaced the keyboard on that one, too. Hey, things like that just wear out. Right? However, I still use that computer, occasionally. I often use it to remotely control video equipment because my iPad doesn't do Flash. It also comes in handy because it's got a large(r) hard drive. I can transfer stuff like pictures and video to it and use it to display stuff for people where that might be space prohibitive on the iPad.
With two computers that are going on ten years old and my main desktop, a Mac Pro 3,1, which is five years old and still going strong I think I've gotten quite a bit of bang for my buck. I'm not talking just about how long the hardware lasts but how long the computer remains viable for doing work given the pace at which applications and system software grows more complex and needs more processing power just to stay "normal."
I never really experienced that kind of longevity out of a windows platform. In order to keep hardware alive, I have often had to reformat and install Linux.
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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today
Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99
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posted 07-27-2013 06:12 PM
I like Mac, I don't like the "Apple tax" (high prices) nor the stigma that comes from being associated with other Mac users. I like building my own computers piece by piece and you really save a bunch o' cash that way. I'm not one who will just go out and buy a Dell. But with Apple, I have to buy it whole. You can kind of configure it on their website. Buying it at the store you're limited to what they have. No newly-designed Mac has any optical (CD/DVD, etc) drive any more. iMacs have had those drives for a while. The new Mac Pro won't have one. All PCs still have one, I think. And don't even bring up Hackintoshes as they don't work tremendously well since the OS is designed to work with very specific hardware.
I've had my Mac Pro since 2006. It's survived that long because I've been able to change things about it as time progresses. More RAM has been added. MANY internal hard drives have been added. Capture cards have been added to the PCIe slot. A completely new video card is in there (ATI 5770... didn't even have to install a driver, just plug it in and it works fully since all of various the graphic card drivers are built into the OS). I can even change out the CPUs if I wanted to. With the new Mac Pro that is coming out soon (the one that looks like a trash can), this functionality has been removed. I can no longer upgrade it. I might be able to add RAM, but that's it. It's no longer a Mac Pro, but instead a glorified Mac Mini. I can't put hard drives in it (ANY hard drives). Anything I add has to be attached with a stupidly expensive Thunderbolt cable. Want to add a PCI card? Fuck you, because you can't. You have to get an external PCI rack for that and hook it up with glorious Thunderbolt. And guess what, that will probably require its own power supply. So an additional power supply for PCI cards, another one for the drives, more for anything else you attach, geez. So it's a very poorly thought-out product. Do I want one? Yes.
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Mark Ogden
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 943
From: Little Falls, N.J.
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-27-2013 06:49 PM
I'm starting to wonder about Jon Ive's influence over Apple as a whole. The industrial design mantra has alway's been "form follows function", but it seems to be reversed there, and I am beginning to wonder how much his design wishes influence product specifications. The whole simple and thin thing is all very well and good, but I find their propensity for fixing design cues that aren't broken and losing operational features along the way pretty annoying (the little iPods without the display being a prime example). I would still rather have an optical drive built in to my iMac, and as JR has pointed out, the new Mac Pro may look cool to some (not to me, it reminds me too much of the old G4 Cube), but I would rather maintain the degree of user modification that we have now, even if it means sticking in a fan and keeping a more traditional tower style chassis. I like design just fine, it's what attracted me to Apple in the first place, but c'mon.
Having said that, I would still answer the OP's question as "yes". Still the most solid and reliable computing platforms out there, and the support remains superb.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-28-2013 11:16 AM
In another forum this topic would be considered flame bait.
Apple makes good products and a customer should be happy with one as long as he doesn't mind the choices Apple has made for him.
I don't agree with some of the company's philosophy. It's pretty damned ridiculous you can't buy a Mac tower or notebook with a built in Blu-ray burner or play BD movies in OSX. It's paranoia to protect the iTunes business model, despite the fact legions of PC users use iTunes.
If I plug an iPhone into a PC I should be allowed to see more than the damned digital camera folder. And you can only copy photos from the phone; you're not allowed to move photos onto the phone. They make you use iTunes to move content on and off the device. I don't like that. You should be able to use the Finder in OSX or Windows File Explorer to see everything. I have a file manager on my Android phone that lets me see all the folders in the phone's internal memory and removable MicroSD card. My PCs, HDTV and Playstation 3 can see the folders in my smart phone and play media from it easily.
The whole "thin is sexy" thing has gone too far. The iPhone has influenced every smart phone maker to use non-removable batteries. I would never buy a notebook computer that had a non-removable battery. The top end Mac Book Pro models have everything glued into the unit. If you have any serious problem with the system you cannot fix it yourself. You have to pay someone else to do it, and possibly even mail off the system and be without it for weeks. That sucks. I'd much rather have a slightly thicker notebook that allows me to do a bunch of the repair work myself.
The design of the new Mac Pro tower is fucking idiotic. It's a complete misunderstanding of the needs of power users. I guess the guys in California want a computer that will fit in a lipstick case and perhaps match the sexy shoes and dress you're going to wear that day.
The so-called "Mac Tax" is real. There's two reasons for it. 1. Lack of crapware subsidizing a low price. Department store PCs are well known for being bloated with system slowing crapware. 2. Apple brand worship. This is no different than other popular brands soaking consumers for the prestige of using, carrying or wearing a product with a certain brand name. Apple is perhaps the only technology company that successfully made its products fashionable.
quote: Randy Stankey
I never really experienced that kind of longevity out of a windows platform. In order to keep hardware alive, I have often had to reformat and install Linux.
We have a couple old Dell PCs in my work place that are over 10 years old and still running ok. My last work computer sat under my desk for 7 years. It was recently moved over to drive our vinyl cutting machine. The video card in the machine it replaced shit the bed, and that computer (a cheap kit built model) was at least 7 years old.
Longevity is actually the primary reason why the press keeps shouting doom and gloom headlines about the PC industry. Sales are indeed down quite a bit. The press doesn't look at the obvious reasons for the situation. They just keep saying consumers have changed their preference to tablets and smart phones. Yeah, sure, smart phones are incredibly popular. Most people I know have one. But all of those people have a notebook or desktop computer at work and at home. I have never seen anyone be able to do all of their computing using a smart phone or tablet. At some point you need a more powerful PC with a real keyboard, far more storage, a bigger screen and full fledged desktop applications. Smart phones and tablets are not a replacement for a real computer. And, no, we do not live in a "post-PC world" despite claims from the technology press.
The PC market is saturated. People now only typically buy a new computer to replace a really old one that finally broke and can no longer be repaired. The PC industry will have to make some bold innovations and much bigger leaps forward in terms of power & capability to get consumers back into the "I want a new PC phase" and away from the "oh shit I have to buy a new PC" phase.
Customers can buy PCs that don't last worth a damn. If you buy the cheapest, low end models you'll get minimal power, minimal upgrade-ability and lots of crapware. Such models won't last more than 3 or 4 years before getting really slow. But that's still more than the 2 year (or less) life span of many smart phones. I'm guessing the press wants us replacing our computers every 2 years before they declare the PC industry as being healthy.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Scott Norwood
Film God
Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-28-2013 02:01 PM
As mentioned above, if you need to run or write software that only runs (or only runs well) on the Mac (or Ipad, etc.), then you need to buy an Apple product.
Otherwise, I think that Bobby pretty much nailed it here:
quote: Bobby Henderson
Apple makes good products and a customer should be happy with one as long as he doesn't mind the choices Apple has made for him.
Apple makes some nice hardware, absolutely none of which I would buy. I dislike the company in general, as well as its condescending attitude towards its users. The idea that anyone would sell a product with a rechargeable battery that cannot be easily replaced by the user is laughable. This is the one part of the product that is guaranteed to fail, and it should be a user-replaceable item (see Ipad, Ipod, Iphone, and the recent Mac laptops). Same for their other parts. Yet, Apple goes out of its way (pentalobe screws, anyone?) to make life difficult for those who wish to replace parts on their hardware.
Similarly, it becomes difficult to manage Mac hardware in a corporate environment when newer hardware will not run older versions of the operating system (a problem with some older software), the old hardware is no longer available for purchase, and Apple gives no clue as to what new products will be introduced when. Aunt Millie may not care about this, but it is a big issue in installations of more than a handful of machines.
Also, I dislike some of Apple's hardware design choices: I hate their chiclet keyboards, their glossy LCDs (matte is available on their laptops at extra cost, but not on imac desktops), and the fact that the hardware is generally proprietary for no good reason. (I have no issues with proprietary hardware when it represents an improvement over commodity hardware, but not when it is just proprietary for the sake of being so.)
That said, their desktop and laptop hardware actually isn't particularly overpriced when compared with quality x64 hardware from other manufacturers. Apple doesn't do "cheap and crappy," but, once you get above that level, the Apple tax is fairly small, especially compared to what it used to be. If you want a pre-built and pre-packaged computer and are happy with what Apple sells (they don't give many choices), then it is not a bad deal.
My own computing preference at the moment is Linux on the desktop and server and Windows on the laptop. Many of us need to run various pieces of Windows software at times, and laptops often have weird hardware which is better supported by Windows. I prefer to build my own desktops and servers and can choose hardware that specifically avoids any compatibility issues with Linux.
The tablet discussion is a separate issue, and I don't really have anything to add, except that the Apple devices have far better touch-sensitive LCDs than anything else that I have seen. I hate touch panels generally, but the Apple ones are usable, unlike pretty much all others. I don't really have any use for a tablet, however, and the non-replaceable battery would be a deal-breaker for me in any case.
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