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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Kodak! What are you going to do? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Kodak! What are you going to do?
Steve Matz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 672
From: Billings, Montana, USA
Registered: Sep 2003

- posted 12-11-2013 11:56 AM      Profile for Steve Matz   Email Steve Matz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What is Kodak going to do? They have already heard that the Major Film Studios and independants
are no longer going to use 35mm/70mm film.They have recently laid off another 67 employees from their work
force and they have increased the prices on their Film Stock.

That sounds like a company that is approaching desperation for its future.I believe they waited too long
to be serious in the Digital Market which is ironic since they were experimenting with Digital back in 1975
and even produced an early Primitive Camera.

What do you do when you are so desperate for Capitol that you are selling off your numerous patents.I certainly
as a person who invests in common Stock,aren't going to be buying shares of Kodak anytime soon.

Well even the mightest through the decades have fallen by the wayside. I never in my generation would have ever
thought two Car Companies like Oldsmobile and Pontiac would have died. Harley Earl would be rolling over in his Grave!

As much as this company had become a house hold name in past decades I don't see a bright future. Maybe they
shouldn't have put all their eggs in one basket thinking Film was here forever!!! [uhoh]

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Terry Lynn-Stevens
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1081
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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- posted 12-11-2013 12:13 PM      Profile for Terry Lynn-Stevens   Email Terry Lynn-Stevens   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kodak will just continue to make film products for those who want to shoot in film. There won't likely be much 35mm exhibition soon (not like there is already) and 15/70 gets more rare as the days go buy.

From what I have read and heard from various sources online, it really makes no difference if you shoot in 35mm or digital, from a cost standpoint it all balances out at the end.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
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- posted 12-11-2013 12:22 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As the OP points out, Kodak missed the digital imaging bus, but there were other exacerbating factors for their decline as well: for example, their shift from a diversified chemical manufacturer (EK made everything from dry cleaning fluid to industrial lubricants once) to one that only made photographic products in the '80s and '90s, and then Antonio Perez's disastrous attempt to break into the consumer inkjet market in the late '00s.

I suspect that they'll try to do long term is what IBM has successfully done and what HP is currently trying to do: quit the manufacturing business altogether and sell services rather than products, leveraging the EK brand to do so. They don't have anything close to a market-leading presence in any of the things they make except film and processing kit chemistry, and the market itself for those products is in decline.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

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From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 12-11-2013 02:41 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dang! They better not, I have a lot of nice cameras here that I use...

Kodak actually has no plans to discontinue Vision 3 negative products. In fact there were recently contracts signed between a few of the studios and Eastman Kodak to supply film stock for a lot of the Sitcoms and Films going into production over the next few years. European producers also just won a lawsuit that allows them to make a choice of weather to originate on Super 16 or to shoot digital. Apparently many were forced to shoot digital but wanted to shoot on film. Imagine wining a lawsuit to be able to do that! So don't expect film to disappear as an origination medium any tme soon. It has seen better days as an exhibition medium though...

Mark

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Terry Lynn-Stevens
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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- posted 12-11-2013 03:31 PM      Profile for Terry Lynn-Stevens   Email Terry Lynn-Stevens   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, well said.

As long as Kodak is still around, I think Kodak will always make film for someone who will pay for it.

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Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

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From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
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- posted 12-11-2013 04:47 PM      Profile for Claude S. Ayakawa   Author's Homepage   Email Claude S. Ayakawa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Eastman Kodak company discontinued a lot of different kinds of films especially for still professional photographers like myself. I know Both Kodachrome and Ectachrome are gone and I do not think Vericolor the color negative film I had used for most of my film based work is no longer available in the 120 size as well as the different size sheet film.

As far as motion picture film is concerned, I think duplicating film will be around for awhile as well as regular stock as long as there is a demand for it.

-Claude

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Steve Matz
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Billings, Montana, USA
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- posted 12-11-2013 10:40 PM      Profile for Steve Matz   Email Steve Matz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well Kodak has been a Household name for several generations and average americans associate them with their photographic memory albums and old home movies.They have always seem to have had a moralistic business sense at least to joe Citizen...

My suggestion to them is do what the Big Automakers did a few years back.Go to Congress and ask them(the American tax payer) to bail them out.All they have to say to Congress is we miscalculated technological advancements and found ourselves behind the eight ball.We have been both a beneficial and necessary Corporation to generations of Americans and our demise would leave an empty crater in American History...

My only other piece of advice to Kodak's CEO and other bigshots is don't do what GM and Chrysler did. Show up in Washington in Private Corporate LEAR JETS and arrive at Congessional hearings in Chauffer Driven Limos. Congress tends to frown upon that even though they do it themselves... [beer] [puke]

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

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From: Bloomington, IN, USA
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- posted 12-12-2013 01:08 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens

As long as Kodak is still around, I think Kodak will always make film for someone who will pay for it.
This makes more sense if you reverse it to read: "As long as there's someone who will pay for film, Kodak will still be around."

Note that I said "more" sense. Not "perfect" sense.

As orders become fewer and farther between, the cost of manufacturing (and using) film will increase. Even so, at some point, purchase orders will become so few and far between, that it won't be cost-effective for Kodak to stay in the game.

There's probably a formula that determines how long of a gap they'd be able to endure between major orders, assuming orders of a certain magnitude and frequency.

And profit margin.

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Justin Hamaker
Film God

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- posted 12-12-2013 02:03 PM      Profile for Justin Hamaker   Author's Homepage   Email Justin Hamaker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Matz
My suggestion to them is do what the Big Automakers did a few years back.Go to Congress and ask them(the American tax payer) to bail them out.All they have to say to Congress is we miscalculated technological advancements and found ourselves behind the eight ball.We have been both a beneficial and necessary Corporation to generations of Americans and our demise would leave an empty crater in American History...
I don't think this will work for Kodak. First of all, can you make the argument that Kodak is still a major employer in the US? Are there a number of other businesses in the US which supply parts to Kodak? Does Kodak still make products which are deemed essential for the American economy?

When the auto industry when to Washington asking for a bailout, they were able to make the case that they were essential to the American economy. In terms of both jobs and the production of durable goods, automakers are an essential industry. Plus, allowing any one of the big 3 American companies to go under would have had a ripple effect that would have hurt other companies which provided components for cars.

Although Kodak may be important to certain niche markets, I don't see how they hold the importance of an auto maker.

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Terry Lynn-Stevens
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- posted 12-12-2013 02:06 PM      Profile for Terry Lynn-Stevens   Email Terry Lynn-Stevens   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Manny Knowles
This makes more sense if you reverse it to read: "As long as there's someone who will pay for film, Kodak will still be around."

Note that I said "more" sense. Not "perfect" sense.
Manny, it actually makes better sense the way I said it and not the way you said it. Kodak currently makes more than just film, they make printers, digital cameras, document imaging solutions etc etc. It is possible they could end their manufacturing of film and still be around.

So, as long as Kodak is around, they will likely still make film for those who will pay for it.

Note that I said "better" and not "perfect" sense [Razz]

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

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- posted 12-12-2013 03:28 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
They may be around, but they certainly won't make film as long "as there are people around who will pay for it"... there has to be ENOUGH people. They quit making Kodachrome... but I don't think all the Kodachrome fans died en masse. There are still a lot of them left, just not enough to buy enough film to make the manufacturing pay.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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- posted 12-12-2013 04:09 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
Manny, it actually makes better sense the way I said it and not the way you said it. Kodak currently makes more than just film, they make printers, digital cameras, document imaging solutions etc etc. It is possible they could end their manufacturing of film and still be around.
Kodak could survive in those other market segments (digital cameras, printers, etc.) if they were a leading player in those areas and those areas weren't struggling badly.

At the end of Sept. Kodak announced it was dropping out of the consumer inkjet printer business. The company isn't much of a player in office printing or large format printing. All of those niches are dominated by other companies, such as HP, Epson, Roland, Konica-Minolta, etc. Changing attitudes among consumers and businesses are sapping demand for printers. More and more people are displaying and sharing photos and other documents electronically. Businesses are under pressure to go paperless for numerous reasons.

The digital camera industry is kind of in the shitter right now. Nikon and Canon (the leading DSLR companies) have both been having a rough time. Smart phones have been killing off a big part of the one piece "point and shoot" camera market. A very strong Japanese Yen has made professional level camera gear extremely expensive. A 400mm f/2.8L lens made by Canon used to cost $7000; its "II" replacement costs nearly $11,000. I paid $1400 for my L-series 24-70mm zoom lens. Its new "II" replacement, still with no image stabilization, costs nearly $1000 more!

Kodak has no entries in the DSLR space. Its point and shoot cameras have been derided as junk compared to PAS cameras from Nikon, Canon and others. Even Nikon & Canon have reduced the number of PAS models they make. Kodak could try the fairly new "mirrorless" market, but Nikon and Sony are already pretty far ahead.

A decade ago Kodak was a leader in the digital back market (a digital back is an imager that can fit into a medium or large format camera originally designed to shoot film). Kodak stopped making digital backs in 2004. Phase One, Hasselblad, Mamiya/Leaf are in control of that high end market now.

Like or not, without the film business, Kodak is toast.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

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- posted 12-12-2013 04:09 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Matz
Well Kodak has been a Household name for several generations and average americans associate them with their photographic memory albums and old home movies.They have always seem to have had a moralistic business sense at least to joe Citizen...
Exactly, so the brand has intrinsic value. People trust it. So that should be a plus when EK tries to diversify into another business. Their problem with inkjet stuff was that Perez was trying to muscle into a market that was already dominated by other big, trusted names - he was late to the party. Playing the armchair CEO for a moment, I'd be looking for another market that is vaguely related to imaging and/or chemistry (consumer 3D printing, perhaps?) and which has not already been sewn up, in which to deploy the Kodak branding.

quote: Steve Matz
My suggestion to them is do what the Big Automakers did a few years back.Go to Congress and ask them(the American tax payer) to bail them out.All they have to say to Congress is we miscalculated technological advancements and found ourselves behind the eight ball.We have been both a beneficial and necessary Corporation to generations of Americans and our demise would leave an empty crater in American History...
I don't want to sail too close to the political wind, but my understanding is that the number of jobs potentially at risk if the Detroit automakers went down was in the millions: just those three automakers shutting up shop would have put a significant dent in the United States' GDP (and it would have had significant international relations implications, too, when their overseas operations closed, as demonstrated by the reaction to GM's recent decision to pull out of Australia). So, as with the banks in 2007-08, Detroit played the "too big to fail" card, and successfully. I'm afraid that EK simply isn't that big or that strategic. Yes, EK is an American icon, but so was RCA and eventually cold, hard economics caught up with it.

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Terry Lynn-Stevens
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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- posted 12-12-2013 04:16 PM      Profile for Terry Lynn-Stevens   Email Terry Lynn-Stevens   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
but my understanding is that the number of jobs potentially at risk if the Detroit automakers went down was in the millions:
Yup you are correct. The ripple effect would be massive, all of the suppliers, dealers, shipping of parts and cars etc would all be affected.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

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From: Forsyth, Montana
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- posted 12-12-2013 06:20 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Leo Enticknap
the brand has intrinsic value. People trust it.
That's right, so the brand itself will probably be the last thing to "go." Once everything else has been sold off, then they will sell the brand name which will then get slapped on anything from printer paper to drawing boards...pretty much anything that might even be remotely associated with imaging of any type. It'll be the same as the "Crosley" brand you now see plastered onto cheap machines that make CDs from LPs or cassettes...Crosley being a well-respected brand among the over-50 set. But Crosley the actual company is long gone.

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