Film-Tech Cinema Systems
  Home     Products     Store     Forum     Warehouse     Contact Us    
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » 35mm in TV Stations (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: 35mm in TV Stations
Steve Matz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 672
From: Billings, Montana, USA
Registered: Sep 2003

- posted 04-04-2014 01:31 PM      Profile for Steve Matz   Email Steve Matz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was always curious what percentage of Television Stations in the 50's and 60's had 35mm Telecine Projectors. All the Stations I ever visited over the years used 16mm, mostly RCA TP6/66 or Eastman 250,275,285. The only Station that I ever was in that I saw a 35MM Projector was KTLA Los Angeles back around 1968. It was a SIMPLEX Based XL and apparently they are pretty rare. I remember seeing one up for sale on EBAY years ago and they wanted something like 35 grand; emphasizing that it was an extremely rare model Simplex Telecine model.

I can't find any relevant info on what Model it was,how many were ever made etc. I'm thinking that probably only a Few Major Large Metropolitan TV Stations; probably in California,New York,Chicago,etc would of even considered using 35mm equipment back then.

Anybody up here ever work in a Station that used 35mm Equipment.
would like some feed back....Thanks [beer]

 |  IP: Logged
Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 04-04-2014 07:52 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
British broadcasters used 35mm pretty much exclusively for all non-studio shooting and recording (kinescoping) studio productions, well into the 1960s. The technicians' union, the Association of Cine-Technicians, fought the introduction of 16mm and later ENG tooth and nail, because of the threat they represented to its members' jobs. This article explores how, even as late as the mid-70s, the use of 16mm (more flexible than 35mm or studio-based VT technologies) was still a labor relations flashpoint.

 |  IP: Logged
John Eickhof
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 588
From: Wendell, ID USA
Registered: Jan 2000

- posted 04-04-2014 09:03 PM      Profile for John Eickhof   Author's Homepage   Email John Eickhof   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I used to service several in the Stockton / Sacramento area in the mid 70s. KCRA, KOVR, and a couple others had them. They were 2000ft capacity and had 16mm and slide projectors feeding the multiplexer. There were both RCA and GPL/Simplex machines. I also serviced an early video tape distributor who had three Simplex units with 6000 ft capacity and his camera system fed a bank of 100+ VCRs to make his tape copies. I picked up a nice Simplex and RCA telecine from Charlie Wolk when he sold his company years ago. They are in my museum. The RCA used a shutterless BX-80 and the Simplex had a shutterless XL, all were 3phase for synch use with flat 5 blade shutters driven by synch motors. The RCAs featured an automatic lamp changer if the projection lamp failed during use! The GPL / Simplex had a flip-over lamp holder like the exciter lamp in the RCA MI9030.

 |  IP: Logged
Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 04-05-2014 10:58 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
CBC here had some supers that had been converted to a custom high speed movement and 5 blade shutters
There also used to be several of the RCA electronic machines in use

 |  IP: Logged
Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002

- posted 04-05-2014 06:35 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the BBC started making significant use of 16 mm at about the time of the change to colour, which other than experimental started in 1967. Some major productions were still shot on 35mm however.

Film chains were much less common here in broadcast use than flying spot machines since for 625/50 we had no need for 3:2 pull down. Even 405 line equipment was often flying spot. I think the only studios where I ever saw film chains were the ones of the private system of the I.L.E.A. (Inner London Education Authority) who used ex broadcast monochrome equipment. They had two 16/35/slide multiplexor chains in the 70s. 35 mm was almost never used there.

By about that time film recording by the broadcast studios was also 16 mm, mainly for export and mainly monochrome. I don't think the BBC ever did colour film recording on 35 mm.

In the early '70s London Weekend were still transmitting directly from both 16 mm and 35 mm at their new studio complex on the South Bank. I saw an old black and white made for TV movie going out live from there on a pair of 35mm machines in about 1974.

I think there was another significant difference between UK and US practice at this time. We didn't generally have little local low budget stations. There was only BBC 1, BBC 2, and ITV when colour started, and BBC 2 had only been going for three years then. Channel 4 didn't arrive until the late '80s.

 |  IP: Logged
Jim Cassedy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1661
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: Dec 2006

- posted 04-05-2014 08:55 PM      Profile for Jim Cassedy   Email Jim Cassedy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Up until the late 80's or early 90's, independent TV station KBHK here in San Francisco
used to advertise on air that they were running all their Star Trek episodes & some
of their weekend movies from directly from 35mm. I think that up until around
the same time the major networks were running 35mm prints for some of their shows.
I used to have a wholebuncha 35mm "network prints" of MISSION IMPOSSIBLE, and I
also had a number of 35mm 30min "fall preview" reels from CBS, where they advertised
the new shows for the upcoming season. It's my understanding that some of these
were meant for air use, and others were run at a CBS network affilliates convention.
I also used to have half of a Perry Mason episode in 35mm. The coolest thing
about the stuff from CBS, was that they had their own custom made film cans,
with the CBS "eye" embossed in the top cover.

 |  IP: Logged
Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 04-05-2014 10:25 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There were none left in Chicago stations in the late 70's when I worked there in broadcasting, it was all 16mm and mainly because of the quantity of newsreel work that was done there. The stations even had their own film labs then. There were some 35mm telecine at WGN up to about the early 1970's though. All the 35mm telecines were in post houses or film labs and those were junked by the mid 80's in favor of Rank flying spot scanners. I ended up with a nice RCA FR-35B that came out of Editel in Chicago.

Mark

 |  IP: Logged
Steve Matz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 672
From: Billings, Montana, USA
Registered: Sep 2003

- posted 04-05-2014 11:36 PM      Profile for Steve Matz   Email Steve Matz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Guys, Interesting Info; Something that also had me curious was many TV Shows in the 70's when you saw behind the Scenes Footage showed them being Filmed with PANAVISION Cameras.

If your Film Episodes were expressly for a 4 to 3 ratio TV Screen Format;Why would you be filming them in Panavision/widescreen or were those Cameras capable of different aperature sizes to film Television size Format back then.

I thought Panavision Cameras shot Widescreen 35mm and Super Panavision 70mm. I know a lot of old TV Shows were shot with Mitchell 300 BNC Models and those were pretty much 1.33 or 1.37
I think...

 |  IP: Logged
Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 04-05-2014 11:41 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Panavision is a rental company. "Filmed IN Panavision" implies something shot on 35mm with Panavision anamorphic lenses. "Filmed WITH Panavision cameras and lenses" means just that--any format (could be 16mm, 35mm, or 70mm) that used Panavision equipment. For TV, this would normally be 35mm Academy or, more recently 35mm 3-perf. The Panavision 35mm camera is a descendent of the Mitchell 35mm camera design and uses essentially the same movement.

(Confusingly, the Panavision company will also rent you Arriflex or Aaton cameras that have been modified to accept Panavision lenses.)

As for TV, my understanding is that NYC and LA and the US networks all had 35mm film chains, but that almost all local stations only had 16mm. What I would actually be curious about now is if any stations still have film chains set up that could be switched to air in 2014 (as opposed to sitting disassembled in a pile in a basement or warehouse somewhere).

 |  IP: Logged
Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

- posted 04-06-2014 06:47 AM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Network 35mm origination came from New Jersey due to taxation in NYC. I believe that all film originated from one place for all 3 major networks. I toured NBC as film was microwaved in to feed 2 VTR.

 |  IP: Logged
Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 04-06-2014 09:00 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
BNC's were in use up into the 1980's for television as well as Panavision PSR's. Seinfeld was initially shot with multiple PSR's and later changed to Panaflex's with 2000' magazines. I Love Lucy, Dick Van Dyke, Star Trek, Andy Griffith, Batman were all shows that were shot with BNC's or BNCR's.

Mark

 |  IP: Logged
Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 04-06-2014 11:56 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Stephen Furley
I think the BBC started making significant use of 16 mm at about the time of the change to colour, which other than experimental started in 1967.
So the new generation of fine grain, fast 16mm stocks (e.g. FP4 and the revamped Tri-X) came on the market a decade earlier, as did the first generation of truly professional 16mm camera equipment (the Arriflex 16, Angeneiux zooms, etc.). Educational filmmakers, the New Wave, etc. etc. were using this stuff all over the place by the early '60s, but yet British broadcasters effectively refused to touch it for another decade!

About a decade ago, the BBC published a DVD compilation called something like 50 Years of TV News, which included a "making of" documentary. It included footage of a 35mm camera crystal-synced to a Nagra shooting footage of The Beatles at Heathrow in the mid-60s!

quote: Scott Norwood
What I would actually be curious about now is if any stations still have film chains set up that could be switched to air in 2014 (as opposed to sitting disassembled in a pile in a basement or warehouse somewhere).
Not strictly a film chain, but a used equipment dealer I know had a Cintel mk. III in lovingly maintained, ready-to-go condition, formerly in the possession of a private owner (retired broadcast engineer) who died. This guy didn't really have much hope of selliing it on (no-one wants standard def stuff these days, and the few that do want easy to operate and maintain telecines, e.g. Elmos and older Flashscans). Within a month, the North Korean embassy phoned up out of the blue and offered him his asking price (£10k, which he didn't expect to get). He half thought it was a prank, but the money appeared in his bank account a couple of days later, and shortly after that a removals lorry appeared, and it was crated and palleted up and driven away.

It's probably broadcasting the dear leader's propaganda (or the supreme leader's, depending on which immortal despot you choose) straight from film as we speak! Maybe they should have thrown in a print of the South Park movie as a freebie... Apparently North Korea uses PAL as its broadcasting system, hence the reason they were looking around in Britain for used equipment.

 |  IP: Logged
Mark Ogden
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 943
From: Little Falls, N.J.
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 04-06-2014 02:32 PM      Profile for Mark Ogden   Email Mark Ogden   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Louis Bornwasser
Network 35mm origination came from New Jersey due to taxation in NYC. I believe that all film originated from one place for all 3 major networks. I toured NBC as film was microwaved in to feed 2 VTR.
That was the case for ABC and NBC, who maintained film chains in separate New Jersey facilities (Union City and Ft. Lee, respectively). CBS ran their film from their studio building on 57th St. and coughed up the tax. This was the case thru the "golden age" of television to about the late 70s, when the Type "C" one-inch tape format took hold and made it more economical to do transfers in LA and ship the tapes to NYC to beat the tax. All of the networks continued with film playback for the Saturday morning cartoon shows thru to about the early nineties, partially to appease the IATSE/MPMO, who handled projection.

I'm no longer aware of any live film-to-air facilities anywhere at any network, although some maintain transfer facilities in NYC for archival footage and the like. In fact, CBS just bought some refurbished Thomson Shadows from Technicolor that will be used for just such purpose.

I was working at CBS when the first-floor film area was ripped out. I saw a slide machine on its way to the loading dock and grabbed an old trouble slide out of it, which I recently cleaned up digitally and made my in-office screen saver.

-

 |  IP: Logged
Bill Duelly
Film Handler

Posts: 92
From: Roselle Park, NJ
Registered: Feb 2006

- posted 04-06-2014 10:24 PM      Profile for Bill Duelly   Email Bill Duelly   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, did you know Fred who worked in the film transfer department ? He used to tell us about running the first Lucy show, off 35mm, and the takeup broke, but he had to keep it going on air....

 |  IP: Logged
Steve Matz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 672
From: Billings, Montana, USA
Registered: Sep 2003

- posted 04-06-2014 11:41 PM      Profile for Steve Matz   Email Steve Matz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Leo Enticknap
Not strictly a film chain, but a used equipment dealer I know had a Cintel mk. III in lovingly maintained, ready-to-go condition, formerly in the possession of a private owner (retired broadcast engineer) who died. This guy didn't really have much hope of selliing it on (no-one wants standard def stuff these days, and the few that do want easy to operate and maintain telecines, e.g. Elmos and older Flashscans). Within a month, the North Korean embassy phoned up out of the blue and offered him his asking price (£10k, which he didn't expect to get). He half thought it was a prank, but the money appeared in his bank account a couple of days later, and shortly after that a removals lorry appeared, and it was crated and palleted up and driven away.

It's probably broadcasting the dear leader's propaganda (or the supreme leader's, depending on which immortal despot you choose) straight from film as we speak! Maybe they should have thrown in a print of the South Park movie as a freebie... Apparently North Korea uses PAL as its broadcasting system, hence the reason they were looking around in Britain for used equipment.
Kim Jung Whatever is probably using it to tell everyone which relative he plans to kill next [Eek!]

-

 |  IP: Logged


All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
- Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.