Water Damaged Film Collection Advice Needed

[Chris Wehrman]

Hello everyone. I have searched this topic on the forums and have the basic idea understood of using Film-Guard(FG) before unwinding a water damaged print, but I'm not sure it's applicable to my situation here.

I've rescued a collection of prints from a guy who had them stored in his barn for several years. They are mainly on cores in their original cardboard boxes. I know that all of it was subjected to high humidity and temperature swings. Some of it has been exposed to water either directly or by sweating and some seam to have only been exposed to just humidity. Some rolls have cardboard stuck to them, that's how badly the water damage is and some rolls have mold. Most of the boxes were damp when I picked them up this weekend. I immediately brought them into my dry (heated and air conditioned) basement and removed all of the cardboard boxes and paper bands from each roll and set them out on a table to acclimate.

From the forum topics I've seen, the general idea is to apply FG to each side of the roll and let it soak in before attempting to unwind. Some questions I have are:
Is this still the best thing to do for prints that have been subject to water and high humidity for several years?
If so, would spraying the FG directly on the roll be better since the damage is severe or is wiping with a cloth better?
Would keeping the roll in a metal lab can while the FG "dose it thing" help?
How long should I let it soak, hours, days, weeks or months?
Are there any other products that would help either before or after using FG?

If anyone has any experience with using FG on prints with this much damage, I'd like to know your results.



Thank You,

Chris Wehrman

[Vern Dias]

I personally don't think any film in the condition you described will ever be able to run through a projector. Many years ago I bought a collection that had some prints with water damage. Even though the prints were in regular film distribution containers,the basement they were in had some moisture ingress in the past.
In particular, I found that IB Tech prints cannot handle any moisture as the film dyes are water soluble and will simply dissolve the image.

Good luck, I hope you have better results.

[Chris Wehrman]

Thanks Vern, I'm hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

I forgot to mention, these prints are all between 1988 through about 1994. There are no IB tech prints, and I think all are on acetate stocks.

Thanks,

Chris

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Possibly soaking them in Film Guard might at least allow them to be unwound safely, you should really talk to Brad Miller about it before trying it out. I think he has tested it on every possible scenario there is..

[Chris Wehrman]

Exactly Mark, that's what I was wondering if I should submerge them would make any difference, or just douse them heavily with the sprayer? I'll buy a couple of gallons of FG if it will help at all. I have 150 rolls (with possibly more on the way) all in varying degrees of damage both water and physical. Honestly it's very hard to look at them with out my heart being saddened. I want to save as much of it as I can.

Here is an example of the worst in the foreground, you can see some decent rolls in the back.
IMG_20230116_214402_009.jpg

I'm hoping Brad can chime in here with some advice. I haven't done anything with them except what I described in my original post.

Chris

[Phillip Grace]

It is at times like these I wish John Pytlak was still with us.
Have you tried contacting a large film archive - Eastman House or UCLA or similar? There are some known techniques for unwinding water affected rolls. You might be able find something you can adapt to your situation.
Good luck!

[John Eickhof]

when i was working in a small film lab i was told you can rehydrate film by immersion in clean distilled water, the emulsion is water soluble and as long as there are no chemicals in the water it will act like the final rinse in processing, however i have never had need to try it, possibly placing in a humidifier would do it, then the film can be rewound and dried either on racks or with warm dry air and alcohol solution. I am not sure if film guard is water repellent or is soluble you could take a short roll of preview length and try it? immerse it in clean water at approx 80 degrees, let it soak for different ties until it will separate without sticking. (this might be where film guard would help too?) if you can get it moist enough to unroll without removing the emulsion then make a rack to dry it? do not wipe or scrub the film while the emulsion is soft though! in any case this will afford you many hours worth of work! good luck, another way to remove the water is like in a processor, you could fashion a set of air knives that are thin 1/32" nozzles just wider than the film with filtered compressed air that would blow the film dry as it is slowly wound past them, i worked with older Houston feerless machines that operated at approx 45ft/min so they did a decent job of drying the film. and soft rubber squeegee that would wipe the base side. jr

[Brad Miller]

It sounds like you bought Breck's collection. Given the condition of the various reels I have seen that people bought, the odds are that there won't be a whole lot there that is salvageable, and the odds of making complete prints will be even less.

Humidity damage, heat damage and water damage requires special attention in order to salvage. The worst thing you can do is try to unroll it. Once you do that, it's dumpster time, as there is no way to save it. Our film restoration lab may be the only place around anymore that can unblock films, but you have to ask yourself if the titles and the damage are worth the expense of shipping, unblocking, cleaning, outgassing and rewashing. From what I recall, there was nothing really great on that list. Ask yourself, just how bad do you want a runnable print of She-Devil?

You can email me if there is something in there you think may be worth putting forth the effort on, but there is no good "DIY @ home" way to deal with prints that have blocking damage. Anything you do will just make it worse and permanent.

[Randy Stankey]

...possibly placing in a humidifier would do it...

That's what I was going to suggest: Put the film in a humidity chamber at a stable temperature until the emulsion softens so that you can carefully peel the rolls apart.
Then when you have the film unreeled, soak it in distilled-deionized water to clean off any contamination then give it a quick dip in Photo-Flo and hang it up (on racks) to dry in a dust-free enclosure.

After that is done and the film is all dry again, inspect for damage and remediate as needed.

I don't have a problem with Film-Guard but I suggest using it only AFTER you have done the above. My reason is that you want to do one thing at a time instead of using a solution that may need to be cleaned up afterward. Film-Guard has a kind of oil in it. You don't want to use oil to unstick the film because, then, you'd have to remove the oil before you can take your next steps.

If you want to use Film-Guard afterward, that's your choice.

[Brad Miller]

That's what I was going to suggest: Put the film in a humidity chamber at a stable temperature until the emulsion softens so that you can carefully peel the rolls apart.
Then when you have the film unreeled, soak it in distilled-deionized water to clean off any contamination then give it a quick dip in Photo-Flo and hang it up (on racks) to dry in a dust-free enclosure.

Randy, remember he is talking about 2000 foot rolls here. Trying to hang 2000 feet of film to dry in a dust-free enclosure isn't going to be an easy task. Regardless, the "humidity chamber" isn't going to work on those films. The image won't survive.

[Randy Stankey]

I've rescued 35 mm film but not 2,000 ft. of movie film. More like stacks of photographic negatives that were stored in a pile and got stuck together.

Museums and professional conservators use humidity chambers in restoring some things. It's basically a temperature controlled oven that can provide 100% humidity. You put your item in the chamber, seal the door and leave it soak in the moist air. You can make your own humidity chamber with a sealable, plastic container if you can put it some place where it will stay consistently warm at approx. 30º C. Paper and cloth items often remain in the chamber for a few days or a week, depending.

The situation I had was a drawer full of negatives that had been left for years and everything ended up stuck together. My humidity chamber was made from a plastic storage tote with a snap-on lid.
It took almost two days before the outer layers started to come unstuck and about a week before the bulk of it loosened up. I couldn't rescue all of it. Only about 3/4 of it.

A single reel of 35 mm movie film would need a few weeks or a month in a humidity chamber. Probably longer. The stuff, front and center, in the picture above is probably unsalvageable. Some of the stuff in the back might be recoverable. IDK, it's hart to tell without getting your hands on it. Even in the best of outcomes, I wouldn't expect to save all of it.

If it was me, I'd be willing to try to unstick a reel of film or two but a whole movie would have to be something pretty important. There's two dozen reels of film in that picture. That would be a pretty huge project It would be way more that I'd be willing or able to tackle at home.

[Peter Mork]

Before giving up, try and unspool some of the film that was actually submerged in water. If the emulsion got soaked, then was allowed to dry in a spooled-up state, the layers are likely stuck together. That's the worst you'd have to deal with. But if the layers are still damp, they might come apart, but even if projectable you will have to dry them somehow, and it still might look like a spotty mess onscreen. I've had a leaky roof cause a plattered print to get wet, and even after I got it dry, it was a tragedy when run.

Stuff that was merely stored in damp air might be okay, but you won't know until you try putting it on reels and running it. I wouldn't listen to anyone who says this is hopeless. Since you seem to have time and patience, give it a go, and hope for the best.

I agree with Randy - save any treatment with Film Goop for later.

[Chris Wehrman]

Thank you everyone for your input. Yes, there is nothing here that really is worth the money sending to a lab to be un-blocked. However there are quite a few rolls that don't seam to be stuck to gather. The rolls that are, I realize are trash. I'm not going to spend a lot of money on this collection, I'm going to experiment on a few of the lesser damaged rolls, maybe apply FG to both sides of each roll and let sit for a few days, then see what happens.

There are 150 rolls here, and that wasn't all that Breck had, there is another pallet of "orphaned" reels that I couldn't fit into the truck. It was Free (minus the travel expenses) so I really don't have anything to loose here.

Thanks Everyone,

Chris