Kinoton FP20/30 vs. Kinoton FP-30D

[Jerry G. Axelsson]

Stefan, the Kinoton lamphouse you have is higher and a more square model. The other is a more compact and a bit longer. Like I pointed out, the smaller and longer model is not higher than the shutter housing cover if you look closely. I have seen this Kinoton lamphouse on a Kinoton FP-23X.

I know of a the more square lamphouse like the one you have Stefan. Unfortunately, a mirror is needed [diameter 220mm I think).

[Stefan Scholz]

Lacking mirrors, is the key question today. The manufacturer Weule, which made them, bankrupted 2013, for reasons obvious.
It is interesting, how many different ones existed. My FP 23 is no exception. There are not 2 machines, which are identical, unless ordered at the same time.
I am not even sure, if the second projector to mine is identical. I don't have it. Its still at the distributor I got mine from.

[Phillip Grace]

Picking up on Stefan's comments on the demise of Weule. Does anybody offer a re-coating service for old reflectors? I have a few which have deteriorated coatings but otherwise are perfectly sound.

[Steve Guttag]

Lacking mirrors, is the key question today. The manufacturer Weule, which made them, bankrupted 2013, for reasons obvious.
It is interesting, how many different ones existed. My FP 23 is no exception. There are not 2 machines, which are identical, unless ordered at the same time.
I am not even sure, if the second projector to mine is identical. I don't have it. Its still at the distributor I got mine from.

Kinoton had the motto of "Kinoton See the Difference." I used to extend the motto with "from machine to machine." Stefan is correct in how Kinoton would evolve it manufacturing such that one could get the exact same machine if they were ordered at different times. Back in the pre-D days...it was not unusual to get specific "Schaltplan" (schematic) that was specific to the machines you ordered because if you went with whatever was in a printed manual, you'd have to use it as a guideline only and expect there to be some deviation. We would always make copies of those and put them in a binder that would allow us to reference the specific schematics for the specific client. We had separate binders for each installation where all of the cumulative notes were for that installation, including the Schaltplan. In fact, the Schaltplan is where my "Germlish" journey began matching German words to what one would call them in English.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

My comments /additions to Steve's excellent take on the Kinotons below in bold italics: The links lead to the preview pics in the picture Warehouse of the machines I worked with for 14 years.

The mechanism from the FP20 and FP30 were essentially the same till the end of the company. The "D" versions were direct drive, which also were inverter drive. The late-model projectors with the "A" suffix were belt drive (gear belt) with an aluminum plate to hold the motor pretty close to the intermittent...however the body of the motor faced into the projector so it didn't protrude on the non-op side. I didn't find any great advantage or disadvantage to the "A" versus "D" versions, in that respect. The motor ran at 48Hz and the pulleys were in a 1:1 ratio, as I recall. I even retrofitted an FP28 with a modern "A" kit to install a variable speed kit with preset speeds.

Steve, the so called "D's " I had at UC Irvine have the motors mounted as you mentioned for the "A" series:

http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/p...311&category=1

So WTH was Kinoton thinking here?


The traditional FP20s were more compact and I found them, particularly with their substantial "foot" to be more rigid. The FP30 series could get twisted out of square as it is easy to get its feet (that look like lawnmower blades) to be set asymmetrical. Plus, when one wants to go to more than 5-degrees, you have to start putting extensions, change pivot points...etc. The FP20 series was more elegant as you started with a greater range and the pivot point never changed, you just walked your way to the set of holes that would work for your installation to secure the foot to the column.

Yep. Look at what I had to do at HIB 100 (the original installer used 1/2' bolts and nuts for the back feet with metal electrical box covers to protect the floor, I switched them to the large pad feet in the pic.) And yes, they were very unstable at steeper angles:

http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/p...291&category=1

The original Kinoton optical sound reader sucked and there is just no two ways about it. The drum was tooooooo small. As such, the film had to work too hard to try an spin it...combine that with open bearings that would "hoover" up dust, film shedding, popcorn soot...whatever, you'd get wow and flutter out of them. Gordon is right about the cell facing forward being a problem...don't turn on a work light...it WILL see it. Forget about fluorescents too...it will see them. I also found them to be inconsistent from machine to machine with respect to their slit lenses. You could get one dialed in pretty good but its mate would not behave the same. Conversely, the RSSD was quite good and addressed most of these issues. The proof was in the Dolby Digital part...they tracked very well. if you have problems with a basement reader tracking Dolby Digital, you have problems with your optical soundhead and are only noticing it on digital but you do have a problem on optical sound as well. And yes, the Kinoton flywheel thing of various plates on the original optical sound reader was also a bone of contention if you wanted low wow/flutter AND the sound to be up to speed by changeover. That was nearly impossible. Then again, the changeovers in the original machines sucked so bad you were not going to have a clean changeover anyway. The late model Kinotons (rotary solenoids) did much better on changeovers too. I still favor the violent but effective Kelmar style changeovers...don't over think it...we have two positions...open or closed.

The lens turrets on Kinotons...I hated them. In the name of stability (not having the image fall out of alignment or focus), they didn't make it move which made is a PITA to thread. They relented, eventually, by allowing it to move fore/aft to help with threading but still. We converted turret machines to single-lens, if they were in a 2-projector system. Even our multiplexes that put in Kinotons tended towards single-lens and just swapped based on the film.

Oh yeah, those turret were the most horrible things ever. The auto aperture changer was even worse. I recall contacting you to keep an eye out for some single lens setups so I could dumpster those abortions.

Take ups, Tony's assessment is correct...you need "accelerated frictions" if you wanted to take up on any hub smaller than 5-inches (so that would be shipping reels, cores...etc.). We always ordered them with accelerated frictions, if they were getting mechanical frictions. Note, the AA2 also didn't want to run small hubs. I forget if they would handle the 4" hub of a shipping reel or not...definitely wouldn't handle cores in the 1-3 inch sizes).

They barely handled the 4" shipping reels with uneven tension, and cores were a no-go. Film all over the floor if you tried.

So, back to the OP question. If you have FP30Ds at your access, I'd go with them. They are pretty trouble free, as projectors go.

Did you ever encounter the speed control relay issues I mentioned in my last post on this thread? Other than that (and the turrets) they were very trouble free.

I'd have no problem using the older belt drive ones either. That said, if they are (skinny) V-belt type machines, the speeds aren't going to be too accurate. Definitely, in the US, their 60Hz version of things tended to be a bit off. I would try to move to an inverter driven motor and switch to gear belts, if possible. But the base mechanism is fine. Just make sure that the intermittent couplings are not shot or you'll have jump in the picture.

[Steve Guttag]

Tony,
The "A" designation was a very late one and as Larry Shaw used to say..."it is A for Affordable." Your FP30Ds with an "A" motor mount is the Kinoton equivalent to Century calling a JJ2-S (for single shutter)...the double letter in Century was already established as double-shutter. A single shutter "JJ" should have just been a "J" as well as the whole SA versus DA...but I digress.

The long leveling screws were an old "trick" by many. Kinoton did, on the FP30 series (for sure on the "D" and "E" versions) have two pivot point threaded holes and threaded mounting holes to mount extensions to increase the tilt range from +/- 5˚ to 5˚-10˚. They included the extenders with every new projector in the parts kit. And then if you needed more there was a wedge plate that you'd mount to the column so you could get upwards of 20˚ of angle. And yes, as you throw the weight off of centerline you might have to worry about tipping. However, with the 2-7K lamphouse, that wasn't really an issue but I could see on the 1-2KW, maybe...But with using the various extensions, one could keep the feet, more or less, flat to the floor and use the mounting holes to fasten the machine to the floor (sleeve anchor, lead anchor, lag screw...all depending on the surface. There was also the lamphouse support, shown in your picture.

Another aspect of the FP30 is that when the door (or in an FP38 the 16mm mechanism) is open, that will throw your machine a little out of square so all alignment has to be done with it closed and secure.

I did not, as a rule have issue with the relays that Kinoton used. They used relays from "Finder," which is more available in Europe. Farnell had them (Europe version of Newark Electronics). When installing PK60s with conventional Kelmar type automations, I'd pick up spares anyway because you removed (I believe it was RY2) to convert the machine from a momentary on-off pulse to latched on...RY2 being for the latching circuit...note I may be off on my relay designation). I don't recall, EVER having to replace one of those relays or if I did, finding it a rare bird. Now, on the "E" projectors, I did have their opto-isolators go "leaky" on me on their Open-Collector outputs and cause machines to either self-changeover or ignore button presses. If one is going bad, they all are in that batch...I just change them all (they're socketed).

I've had a couple of the contacts on the very old (e.g. FP20 stuff) big ass relays go flaky on low-current stuff. I forget but I think they're 6PDT relays. So, when things like LED conversions went in and we were using them to switch the LEDs on/off with the motor on/off...the current is so low that the contacts in those relays, designed for much higher current, were not, necessarily, stable. Most relay contacts have a current range of acceptability. If you design your contact for putting up with 10A of current...it probably isn't going to do so well at 10mA...and vice-versa.