Kinoton tower

[Steve Pike]

Hi

Looking for some advice to try and solve an issue with the integrated tower of the Kinoton FP25D.

download (1).jfif

Basically, when the projector was first used in 2007 the integrated tower was working and was used with no issues. Then, to make way for the digital projector, the original Westar projector was removed however the Westrex Tower was moved accross and so from that point the FP25D was using the Westrex Tower as film transport.

It seems that the tower of the FP25D has been disconnected as someone had wired the power to the Westrex tower into the mains terminal block in the spool tower (no longer the case as the tower is connected on a separate plug).

Now that I have acquired the projector for home use I would like to try and get it back up and running (especially with the issue I've had with the Westrex tower recently).

So, when the FP25D is switched on, the projector powers up and can operate - however the tower controls do not do anything.

Inside the body of the tower unit, the two Leneze frequency inverters power on (green lights) but nothing else seems to be working or giving an indication that it has power.

Selecting the 'rewind' operation on the tower controls and turning the rewind speed knob to the far left use to make the green LED light up next to it. However noting happens. Selecting the 'Projection' mode for the tower and lifting up the lever arms (to simulate film) the motors do not turn or provides any activity. On the internal board there are a couple of LEDs however they don't light up.

It's almost as if something has been disconnected or something needs switching on!

Here are a couple of photos;

Internal - the Lenze system is powered up:
IMG_0357.JPEG

Internal - showing slightly above the inverts and part of the board on the right:
IMG_0359.JPEG

The board to the right of the inverters and above the mains input - presume that this is the tower board?
IMG_0360.JPEG

Hope someone can help troubleshoot this as it would be nice for it to be fully operating.

[Pete Naples]

I never really liked those, they're rather complicated for what they are.

There's lots of potential failure points, the servo pots on the arms and that in invertor control board.

I don't think theres any spares available from Kinoton for them now either.

[Steve Pike]

Hi Pete

That’s a shame. I was thinking it’s either a power supply that’s been disconnected or the board is dead.

Do you reckon it’s a non starter really and to keep the Westrex tower ticking over?

[Pete Naples]

I will have the manuals with all the schematics somewhere.

That board gets 24v from the PSU above it IIRC, start there and work down.

But if the control board is u/s it's a non-starter.

The beauty of the Westrex 5035, a compent electrician could fix them. If you wanted a real projector, buidl the guts of the 5035 into the pedestal of the FP25D

[Steve Pike]

Ace. Will have a look, but I love your idea of merging the 5035 into the pedestal somehow. I have the motors for the other side of the 5035 stored somewhere so definitely a possibility (only using one side of the Westrex due to space). Have you ever seen it done?

[Steve Guttag]

I agree with Pete...I'd start at the 24V supply at the top. It almost, in the photo, looks like the fuse to that (in the upper-left part of the board) looks blown. Not seeing any of the LEDs lit on the boards leads me to think the problem is in the power supply. It could also be in a film break mode...which would stop either reel from turning. As I recall, the dance arms have to be tensioned up before the reel motors engage. That is, turn the reel until the arm(s) come up, turn the speed control to zero until the LED comes on...then slowly advance. I've only worked with one SPT5000K (the spool tower portion of the FP25) plus a handful of the various Kinoton make up tables and that seems to be their safety type requirements for getting the reels to turn.

[David Ferguson]

Is the FP25D one of the ones with Kinoton's nice "constant tension" feed/takeups, so the tensions remains the same no matter how much film is on each reel? I really want one of those, but sadly don't have the space right now - one day perhaps!

[Stefan Scholz]

Yes, they do feature the tension controlled windings, but in a rather nice (or complicated) manner. Whereas the original Bauer used a variac transformer with center tap to adjust, this relies on 3 phase servo motors with gears, frequency inverters and a digital control. Modern electronics, that will fail. And how to get a PIC programmed without having the code?
The Ernamann winding, using the Duncker 4 quadrant control is easier to service. Standard THT components, no program, no microcontroller.

Even the latest type of their rewind relies on similar constructions. Those are nice, industrial grade, servo motors, and high quality manufacturing, but a little over the top the type of application.

[Steve Guttag]

German "over the top"? Is there some other kind of way?

Have you really ever had PIC controller problems? I can't say that I have. And really, these don't have that much sophistication going on. They're just using software to replace what conventional electromechanical would have done. By and large, Kinoton could achieve a more uniform and more even-tensioned wind than simpler designs. Sometimes, their sophistication got the better of them (e.g. the FP 30/38 EQ is VASTLY more temperamental than the slightly less sophisticated FP30/38ES yet the FP30/38ES is really no less reliable than the FP30/38E).

Again, I don't/didn't have any FP25 to know just how problematic they were. We had the one SPT5000K and it never had a single service call. Likewise, we didn't have service calls on the various MUT/MUU stuff.

[Steve Pike]

I agree with Pete...I'd start at the 24V supply at the top. It almost, in the photo, looks like the fuse to that (in the upper-left part of the board) looks blown. Not seeing any of the LEDs lit on the boards leads me to think the problem is in the power supply. It could also be in a film break mode...which would stop either reel from turning. As I recall, the dance arms have to be tensioned up before the reel motors engage. That is, turn the reel until the arm(s) come up, turn the speed control to zero until the LED comes on...then slowly advance. I've only worked with one SPT5000K (the spool tower portion of the FP25) plus a handful of the various Kinoton make up tables and that seems to be their safety type requirements for getting the reels to turn.

Thanks Steve, I will try and get access to the fuse tomorrow and see if it’s blown. It does look a bit dark in the pic. Maybe that’s the fix! Fingers crossed!

[Steve Pike]

Checked the fuses this morning and all were fine, so unfortunately it potentially looks like a board issue or other issue with power. Even tried the routine with reels and film attached to see if anything happened but it’s dead . Going to leave it for now I think and get the variacs replaced on the Westrex tower. At least the projector part of the FP25d works .

thanks all for your assistance

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

The equivelent Ernamann Sidewinder tower is actually much better and safer to use. I usded to bring one in to do premiere showings in Salt Lake City from time to time. Never had a single issue...

[Sean McKinnon]

So on these spool towers the green light that Steve mentioned has to be set before the reel will turn after the lever arm has "dropped". To set this light you have to both set the lever arm arm and reset the speed potentiometer is turned all the way to the left. I have found sometimes you have to turn it to the right first then back to the left all the way to engage the ready light. There could also be a connection across the film break switch which I think is 21 and 24 on SK2 (I think it's SK2). When I had this issue it was a bad speed potentiometer that would not allow the unit to reset from a perceived "film break" condition. Good Luck!