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  • Kids who grew up with Google

    https://www.theverge.com/22684730/st...ducation-gen-z

    Catherine Garland, an astrophysicist, started seeing the problem in 2017. She was teaching an engineering course, and her students were using simulation software to model turbines for jet engines. She’d laid out the assignment clearly, but student after student was calling her over for help. They were all getting the same error message: The program couldn’t find their files.

    Garland thought it would be an easy fix. She asked each student where they’d saved their project. Could they be on the desktop? Perhaps in the shared drive? But over and over, she was met with confusion. “What are you talking about?” multiple students inquired. Not only did they not know where their files were saved — they didn’t understand the question.

    Gradually, Garland came to the same realization that many of her fellow educators have reached in the past four years: the concept of file folders and directories, essential to previous generations’ understanding of computers, is gibberish to many modern students.

    “I open a drawer, and inside that drawer, I have another cabinet with more drawers.”


    Professors have varied recollections of when they first saw the disconnect. But their estimates (even the most tentative ones) are surprisingly similar. It’s been an issue for four years or so, starting — for many educators — around the fall of 2017.

    That’s approximately when Lincoln Colling, a lecturer in the psychology department at the University of Sussex, told a class full of research students to pull a file out of a specific directory and was met with blank stares. It was the same semester that Nicolás Guarín-Zapata, an applied physicist and lecturer at Colombia’s Universidad EAFIT, noticed that students in his classes were having trouble finding their documents. It’s the same year that posts began to pop up on STEM-educator forums asking for help explaining the concept of a file.

    Guarín-Zapata is an organizer. He has an intricate hierarchy of file folders on his computer, and he sorts the photos on his smartphone by category. He was in college in the very early 2000s — he grew up needing to keep papers organized. Now, he thinks of his hard drives like filing cabinets. “I open a drawer, and inside that drawer, I have another cabinet with more drawers,” he told The Verge. “Like a nested structure. At the very end, I have a folder or a piece of paper I can access.”

    Guarín-Zapata’s mental model is commonly known as directory structure, the hierarchical system of folders that modern computer operating systems use to arrange files. It’s the idea that a modern computer doesn’t just save a file in an infinite expanse; it saves it in the “Downloads” folder, the “Desktop” folder, or the “Documents” folder, all of which live within “This PC,” and each of which might have folders nested within them, too. It’s an idea that’s likely intuitive to any computer user who remembers the floppy disk.

    More broadly, directory structure connotes physical placement — the idea that a file stored on a computer is located somewhere on that computer, in a specific and discrete location. That’s a concept that’s always felt obvious to Garland but seems completely alien to her students. “I tend to think an item lives in a particular folder. It lives in one place, and I have to go to that folder to find it,” Garland says. “They see it like one bucket, and everything’s in the bucket.”

    “As much as I want them to be organized and try for them to be organized, it’s just a big hot mess.”


    That tracks with how Joshua Drossman, a senior at Princeton, has understood computer systems for as long as he can remember. “The most intuitive thing would be the laundry basket where you have everything kind of together, and you’re just kind of pulling out what you need at any given time,” he says, attempting to describe his mental model.

    As an operations research and financial engineering major, Drossman knows how to program — he’s been trained to navigate directories and folders throughout his undergraduate years, and he understands their importance in his field. But it’s still not entirely natural, and he sometimes slips. About halfway through a recent nine-month research project, he’d built up so many files that he gave up on keeping them all structured. “I try to be organized, but there’s a certain point where there are so many files that it kind of just became a hot mess,” Drossman says. Many of his items ended up in one massive folder.

    Peter Plavchan, an associate professor of physics and astronomy at George Mason University, has seen similar behavior from his students and can’t quite wrap his head around it. “Students have had these computers in my lab; they’ll have a thousand files on their desktop completely unorganized,” he told The Verge, somewhat incredulously. “I’m kind of an obsessive organizer ... but they have no problem having 1,000 files in the same directory. And I think that is fundamentally because of a shift in how we access files.”

    Aubrey Vogel, a journalism major at Texas A&M, has had similar experiences to Drossman. She’s encountered directory structure before; she shared a computer with her grandfather, who showed her how to save items in folders, as a child. But as she’s grown up, she’s moved away from that system — she now keeps one massive directory for schoolwork and one for her job. Documents she’s not sure about go in a third folder called “Sort.”

    “As much as I want them to be organized and try for them to be organized, it’s just a big hot mess,” Vogel says of her files. She adds, “My family always gives me a hard time when they see my computer screen, and it has like 50 thousand icons.”

    2017’s college freshmen were in elementary school when the iPhone debuted; they’re around the same age as Google


    Why have mental models changed? Drossman, for his part, has no idea. “I don’t think I even thought about it at all when I first started using computers,” he says.

    It’s possible that the analogy multiple professors pointed to — filing cabinets — is no longer useful since many students Drossman’s age spent their high school years storing documents in the likes of OneDrive and Dropbox rather than in physical spaces. It could also have to do with the other software they’re accustomed to — dominant smartphone apps like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube all involve pulling content from a vast online sea rather than locating it within a nested hierarchy. “When I want to scroll over to Snapchat, Twitter, they’re not in any particular order, but I know exactly where they are,” says Vogel, who is a devoted iPhone user. Some of it boils down to muscle memory.

    But it may also be that in an age where every conceivable user interface includes a search function, young people have never needed folders or directories for the tasks they do. The first internet search engines were used around 1990, but features like Windows Search and Spotlight on macOS are both products of the early 2000s. Most of 2017’s college freshmen were born in the very late ‘90s. They were in elementary school when the iPhone debuted; they’re around the same age as Google. While many of today’s professors grew up without search functions on their phones and computers, today’s students increasingly don’t remember a world without them.

    “I grew up when you had to have a file; you had to save it; you had to know where it was saved. There was no search function,” says Saavik Ford, a professor of astronomy at the Borough of Manhattan Community College. But among her students, “There’s not a conception that there’s a place where files live. They just search for it and bring it up.” She added, “They have a laundry basket full of laundry, and they have a robot who will fetch them every piece of clothing they want on demand.” (Some companies have actually played around with laundry-inclined robots, to little result.)

    To a point, the new mindset may reflect a natural — and expected — technological progression. Plavchan recalls having similar disconnects with his own professors. “When I was a student, I’m sure there was a professor that said, ‘Oh my god, I don’t understand how this person doesn’t know how to solder a chip on a motherboard,’” he says. “This kind of generational issue has always been around.” And though directory structures exist on every computer (as well as in environments like Google Drive), today’s iterations of macOS and Windows do an excellent job of hiding them. (Your Steam games all live in a folder called “steamapps” — when was the last time you clicked on that?) Today’s virtual world is largely a searchable one; people in many modern professions have little need to interact with nested hierarchies.

    But in STEM fields, directory structure remains crucially important. Astronomers, for example, may work with hundreds of thousands of files in the same format — which can be unwieldy to scale to a searchable system, Plavchan says.

    The primary issue is that the code researchers write, run at the command line, needs to be told exactly how to access the files it’s working with — it can’t search for those files on its own. Some programming languages have search functions, but they’re difficult to implement and not commonly used. It’s in the programming lessons where STEM professors, across fields, are encountering problems.

    “They use a computer one way, and we use a computer another way. That’s where the problem is starting.”


    Classes in high school computer science — that is, programming — are on the rise globally. But that hasn’t translated to better preparation for college coursework in every case. Guarín-Zapata was taught computer basics in high school — how to save, how to use file folders, how to navigate the terminal — which is knowledge many of his current students are coming in without. The high school students Garland works with largely haven’t encountered directory structure unless they’ve taken upper-level STEM courses. Vogel recalls saving to file folders in a first-grade computer class, but says she was never directly taught what folders were — those sorts of lessons have taken a backseat amid a growing emphasis on “21st-century skills in the educational space

    A cynic could blame generational incompetence. An international 2018 study that measured eighth-graders’ “capacities to use information and computer technologies productively” proclaimed that just 2 percent of Gen Z had achieved the highest “digital native” tier of computer literacy. “Our students are in deep trouble,” one educator wrote.

    But the issue is likely not that modern students are learning fewer digital skills, but rather that they’re learning different ones. Guarín-Zapata, for all his knowledge of directory structure, doesn’t understand Instagram nearly as well as his students do, despite having had an account for a year. He’s had students try to explain the app in detail, but “I still can’t figure it out,” he complains.

    “They use a computer one way, and we use a computer another way,” Guarin-Zapata emphasizes. “That’s where the problem is starting.”

    Ford agrees. “These are smart kids,” she says. “They’re doing astrophysics. They get stuff. But they were not getting this.”

    Regardless of source, the consequence is clear. STEM educators are increasingly taking on dual roles: those of instructors not only in their field of expertise but in computer fundamentals as well.

    Colling’s courses now include a full two-hour lecture to explain directory structure. He likens finding files to giving driving directions. He shows maps of directory trees and asks his students to pretend they’re guiding others to a highlighted point. He uses every analogy he can think of.

    “Take their phones away and get ‘em on Windows 98.”

    Plavchan now also spends a lot of time teaching his students about directory structure in his courses, along with other basics, like file extensions and terminal navigation. Guarín-Zapata begins his semesters with a similar tutorial. “I start with a little talk about a mental model of a computer, what a computer is,” he says. “We have memory; we have a hard drive; we have an interface; we have a file structure.”

    It’s a difficult concept to get across, though. Directory structure isn’t just unintuitive to students — it’s so intuitive to professors that they have difficulty figuring out how to explain it. “Those of us who have been around a while know what a file is, but I was at a bit of a loss to explain it,” lamented one educator in a 2019 forum post, a sentiment that respondents shared. Ford put out a call for useful analogies on Twitter and was met with various suggestions: physical tree branches and leaves, kitchen utensils sorted into drawers, books and shelves in a library, “Take their phones away and get ‘em on Windows 98.”

    But even after presenting students with every metaphor in the books, Colling still isn’t positive that his students get what he’s talking about: “It feels like I’m having some success, but yeah, sometimes it’s hard to tell,” he says.

    Plavchan agrees that there are limits to how much he can bridge the generational divide. Despite his efforts to tailor his teaching, “some of the tools we use rely on some knowledge that our students just aren’t getting.”

    Others, meanwhile, believe it’s professors who need to adjust their thinking. Working with befuddled students has convinced Garland that the “laundry basket” may be a superior model. She’s begun to see the limitations of directory structure in her personal life; she uses her computer’s search function to find her schedules and documents when she’s lost them in her stack of directories. “I’m like, huh ... I don’t even need these subfolders,” she says.

    Even professors who have incorporated directory structure into their courses suspect that they may be clinging to an approach that’s soon to be obsolete. Plavchan has considered offering a separate course on directory structure — but he’s not sure it’s worth it. “I imagine what’s going to happen is our generation of students ... they’re going to grow up and become professors, they’re going to write their own tools, and they’re going to be based on a completely different approach from what we use today.”

    His advice to fellow educators: Get ready. “This is not gonna go away,” he says. “You’re not gonna go back to the way things were. You have to accept it. The sooner that you accept that things change, the better.”
    I simply can't fathom how anyone can use a computer and not understand the concept of files and directories.

    I was discussing this with my brother yesterday and he had an interesting story as well:

    I have seen a related problem a couple of times now (from multiple students, from multiple brand-name universities).

    It starts when they tell you that they know how the downlink works - and have written code to implement it.

    Great, you think...so you ask about demodulation...or rate matching...or channel coding...or just about anything - and you pretty much get blank stares.

    Push harder - and what you discover is that they know how the downlink works because they wrote the code...in Matlab (maybe simullink) -and they know which parts of which packages to plug together.

    Great...but what actually happens inside of each of those boxes (say - how would you make it run faster? what could you do, if you wanted to improve accuracy, or if you knew something about the channel?)

    No idea.

    They know how to use the tool...but have no idea how the tool works, or how to improve either the tool or the hardware.

    I was shocked the first time it happened. I thought the guy must have slept through all his classes. (He didn't get the job)

    But then it happened several more times - and I realized that it isn't the students - their universities are at fault. In an effort to expose them to some advanced tools - the schools completely skipped the fundamentals.

    The kids don't know what they don't know. (Donald Rumsfeld would be proud.)

    That's a big problem - because things change all the time...if you don't have a pretty solid grasp of the basic stuff - then you pretty much don't understand and can't adapt. You might be a pretty smart monkey pushing a very advanced button...but god help you if you have to select between 1000 buttons and 12 configurations - and justify why you did what you did to your managers or investors.
    This even extends to money. As I've said here before, I don't take any credit or debit cards at my theatre. Cash only. I don't think kids even know how to count money. I have teenagers (teenagers!) come in and just dump some money on the counter for me to take out as much as I need for their admission or their popcorn order. They seem to have no idea if it's twenty dollars or twenty cents.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Frank Cox View Post
    I simply can't fathom how anyone can use a computer and not understand the concept of files and directories.
    Keep in mind that computers themselves don't really gasp the concept of files and directories either. It's a metaphor we made up, to organize things in those machines called computers. Those metaphors have been linked to concepts we were all familiar with, back when computers were still new and fresh, especially the personal computer. We called them files, because that's what we used to organize paper documents with. We called them directories, because that's where we put our files. Later on, those directories were also called "folders", probably to confuse users even more. Yeah, I've had to teach people that folders and directories are the same thing...

    But look at the world now. Many of those kids don't send letters, they don't store stuff in "folders" or "directories"... Files could as well be called "objects" or "thing" or "gooblydot"... The same for directories, which could equally be called "containers" or "bins" or "a bunch of things"...

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    • #3
      I think the word "folders" became ubiquitous due to the graphical user interface taking over. A little picture of a folder on a screen is easy to understand, and a little picture of a document is easy to imagine being contained in that folder.

      I remember when I was first learning about computers (my first one was a Radio Shack "Color Computer" with a link to Compuserve) and I was clueless about the whole thing, and a friend of mine introduced me to a program called "X-Tree" which was one of the earliest programs that would give you a visual picture of what was on your computer. It was like a light bulb going on for me when I saw that.

      It does surprise me, the fact that this generation is supposed to be the smartest one ever, how they have no clue how a computer works, as in "where did you put that file?" They're helpless.

      We have the same issues here with money. Lots of cashiers (including, sadly, some of our employees) will get completely flummoxed if somebody buys $10.25 worth of stuff, hands over a $20 bill, and then after the cashier puts in $20 for the amount tendered, the customer says "oh, here's a quarter." We try to teach all our employees how to count back change without using the amount-tendered function but it doesn't always take hold.

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      • #4
        I remember seeing a little commemorative plate a while back that said, "On this day of my Graduation, I would like to thank Google, Wikipedia and whoever invented copy-and-paste."

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        • #5
          We run a student cinema and I can't say I've met many undergrads who don't understand how files and folders work (or at least, I don't think I have!). That said, I think I'm definitely guilty of my desktop and my documents and downloads folders becoming a mess over time -- is this really a generational thing?

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          • #6
            Go back and read the first paragraph. It clearly states that, "The program couldn’t find their files". It does not say "The students couldn’t find their files". The students were reporting a program error.

            Answering the question, “What time is it?” Does Not Require Explaining How to Build a Watch


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            • #7
              But if your watch has stopped, it's nice to know if you need to plug it in, change its batteries or wind it up.

              I don't know much about cars - I've never changed my own oil or anything like that. But I do know enough to recognize what a flat tire looks like.

              Someone who couldn't start her car one day, so she decided that the battery needed to be changed. The lights all worked, the horn and the radio worked fine, but when she turned the key absolutely nothing happened. Obviously it wasn't the battery, but you couldn't convince her of that. She bought a new (expensive) battery and still couldn't start her car. It ended up being the keyswitch itself that had quit.

              Some years ago I was visiting a guy who's actually the accountant for a fair-sized business. His front door dragged on the floor when he opened it and it was really obvious that the hinges were loose. It's been like that for a while, he said. I told him to give me a screwdriver and I'll have it fixed in three minutes. He said that he doesn't have one.

              *boggle*

              How do you own your own house and not have a screwdriver?

              I went back home, got a screwdriver and came back to fix his door.

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              • #8
                One of my favorite "clueless teenager" stories is, a girl who worked for us came driving by the theater one night when I happened to be out in front. I noticed she had a flat tire so I yelled TIFFANY! PULL OVER and I said, don't you realize you have a flat tire? She said "I DO??! I thought it was pulling a little to the left" and I asked how long she'd been driving and she said just a few minutes, so I went and got her a can of flat fix.

                My other favorite is, this one kid asked me "how many dollar bills does it take to make $20?" I said....."uhhh, twenty." He put his head in his hands and went "oh shit....I'm never hearing the end of this, am I?" (To be fair, what he was REALLY wanting to know was, how many dollar bills to put in a bundle, which is also 20.)

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                • #9
                  In an indication of my rapidly advancing age, file and folder structures were something that came significantly after I started to use computers. The first serious computer I spent significant time with (discounting a Sinclair ZX81, which was effectively a toy, though it did teach me the principles of BASIC programming) was my father's CP/M-based Altos, the filesystem on which had no hierarchical directory structure at all - just filenames consisting of eight ASCII characters and a three character extension. It wasn't until a few years later (early 1990s) that I started to use DOS and early Windows computers with filesystems that did have a folder structure.

                  I suspect that the reluctance of today's youngest adult generation to organize files in structured folders is that text and metadata searching capability offered by Windows and MacOS is so powerful that it now doesn't really matter if you do have 5,000 files, all in C:/Username/My Documents, because you can easily and accurately tell the computer to search for what you want inside them, and receive the result within a few seconds.

                  Typing is another skill that was considered specialist and professional in my early childhood, then became a widespread life skill with the rise of personal computers, and now, thanks to voice recognition and predictive text, is in decline again. Both my parents were journalists, with the result that when I was growing up in the late '70s and '80s, there were typewriters in the house and I could do 25-30 WPM by the time I was in middle school. That put me in a tiny minority, and even the teachers in my computing classes were surprised at how quickly I could type. By the time I was in my late teens, however, pretty much everyone could. But now we seem to be going in the other direction: touch screens making typing more physically difficult, voice recognition and predictive text have sent that skill into decline.

                  Far more worrying, IMHO, is the lack of basic understanding of how data is stored, and in particular cloud storage. So many people I've discussed this with simply didn't realize that by syncing their device to Google or Apple or Microsoft, they are doing the equivalent of taking their paper records and putting them in a rented storage unit. You have to trust the owners of the unit not to let it burn down, or use your records for identity theft, ad targeting, give them to the government on demand, or whatever. Some didn't know that the documents and other files they create aren't being physically stored in their actual devices at all.

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                  • #10
                    I took Typing Class in high school. It was called Typing Class but it was more of a secretarial training course where we learned to type but it covered other things like filing methods, note taking and even simple stuff like how to properly fold a letter to fit it into an envelope.

                    I believe that outside of basic reading, writing and math, Typing Class was undoubtedly the most useful class that I took in school. I use the skills I learned there every single day of my life.

                    I was the only boy in Typing Class. I thought it would be a useful thing to know when I signed up for it; I had no idea how essential it would turn out to be over the years afterward.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mike Blakesley
                      One of my favorite "clueless teenager" stories is, a girl who worked for us came driving by the theater one night when I happened to be out in front. I noticed she had a flat tire so I yelled TIFFANY! PULL OVER and I said, don't you realize you have a flat tire?
                      Last November I was doing around 45mph up the 405 in the rush hour, when my tire pressure warning light came on. It is the proverbial electronic boy who cries wolf: it is forever lighting up when there is nothing wrong, especially if there has been a change of temperature more than around 10 degrees or so since the car was last driven. So the next time traffic slowed to a standstill, I pushed the reset and thought nothing further about it.

                      When I got to my service call and parked, I found that the rear nearside tire was completely flat. Assuming that it was deflating when the warning light came on, I did around 25 miles with it in that condition. Honestly, I didn't feel a thing; not even the car wanting to pull to the left. Those 25 miles were in pretty heavy traffic, so I guess I might have felt something if I'd had the opportunity to accelerate up to the speed limit. But I didn't.

                      That tire had done 59,994 miles, and the warranty was to 60k. The guy at America's Tire told me that he once replaced one under warranty that only had two miles left! I was going to replace all four when the next rotation was due anyways, and ended up getting one of them for free on account of that puncture.

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                      • #12
                        Just to respond to the problem highlighted in the news article at the top of the thread: IMHO, using a personal computer without properly understanding basic computer file management skills is just asking for all kinds of trouble. It's fool-hardy.

                        Things break, eventually. That includes the devices that store all those computer files and folders. Just about anyone will place at least some value on the computer data they've accumulated over the years (or decades). In order to protect that data one needs to know how to back it up, and doing so kind of requires the user to understand that file-folder metaphor. And that only sets the stage for having a file preservation strategy, if the computer user chooses to pursue a strategy.

                        Traditional hard discs with spinning platters tend to be pretty reliable. They'll last a long time if they're handled with care, but with enough use and over enough time any of them will fail. Newer solid state drives are amazingly fast (especially the newer NVMe variety) but they're good for only so many read/write cycles. So they're probably less reliable for long term data storage than a traditional hard disc. Many newer computers are being sold with a NVMe SSD as the boot hard disc and an optional second traditional hard drive for data storage. Removable flash-based "memory sticks" are convenient, but they can be really lousy for reliable long term storage.

                        Then then there is the ever present threat of malware. Ransom-ware attacks have been very news-worthy lately. Victims get hit with an attack and are often forced to pay the ransom. It's either that or they can factory-reset the PC to get it running again, but that comes at the cost of torching anything saved on the drives inside.

                        I've seen friends, co-workers and relatives all get burned by not having made periodic back-ups of their data. Usually it's physical failure of a hard disc that gets them.

                        Yeah, we have "the cloud" now. But that works only so well and only if you have Internet access. Another problem: many of us can back up only so much of our data into the cloud. If you have multiple (or many) terabytes worth of data it can be impractical or costly to copy it into the cloud.

                        Here's another aggravation: even if you have your computer data safely backed-up (even on more than one volume and in more than one physical location) your files can get "bricked" by changes in computer applications meant to open and edit those files. For example, I have some old CorelDRAW CDR files from the early 1990's; they can't be opened or imported into the newest versions of that application. It's not so easy to install a 1990's era version of that application into a current version of Microsoft Windows either. Unless I'm going to boot up a vintage PC (or get Windows98 or XP running in a Virtual Machine) I have to use something like Inkscape to open them (and that doesn't work so well). I used Macromedia Freehand for a few years. That application has been dead for years (after Adobe acquired Macromedia and killed Freehand). Adobe created the Postscript Type 1 font format back in the 1980's. Now Adobe is phasing out support for Type 1 fonts in their applications. I have some Type 1 fonts I spent good money on in the 1990's. I might be able to convert them to OpenType format, but that involves buying another application to do so.

                        It takes active, on-going work to keep valuable data protected and usable.

                        Originally posted by Frank Cox
                        I took Typing Class in high school. It was called Typing Class but it was more of a secretarial training course where we learned to type but it covered other things like filing methods, note taking and even simple stuff like how to properly fold a letter to fit it into an envelope.
                        In the early 1980's when I was in middle school and going into high school the typing classes were oriented in a similar way. Students could even take classes to learn shorthand. We learned some of the basics of it in typing class. I remember being a bit blown-away by some electric typewriters of the time. My high school had a few new IBM Selectric typewriters that had changeable type balls with different typefaces on them. Some had eraser ribbons. They had very fast, responsive keys. It was kind of fun trying to hit new personal best levels in typing speed on those things.

                        At home my parents had this old typewriter where every character was on its own type bar (or striker). The bars could get stuck really good if some little brat (such as myself) hammered on a bunch of the keys at the same time. Old typewriters have a certain charm to them. Remember the 1970's TV series Kolchak: The Night Stalker? An old-fashioned typewriter is used very close-up in the opening title sequence. If the series was re-made for today the same title sequence wouldn't work so well updated with computer keyboards and monitors.
                        Last edited by Bobby Henderson; 09-25-2021, 01:18 AM.

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                        • #13
                          This is something I have noticed too, with other students at the uni I'm at. Of course, no computer science students like myself have this problem, but I have helped some other students that don't seem to quite grasp the idea of files and directories, or think that Chrome and Word are the computer, and nothing more. I can't blame them really, as Chromebooks would have you believe that Chrome is all you need, and iOS tries to hide files from you as much as possible. If that's all you've used (and both iPads and Chromebooks are particularly prevalent in schools), then I can see how you might be confused.

                          Originally posted by Kieran Hall View Post
                          We run a student cinema and I can't say I've met many undergrads who don't understand how files and folders work (or at least, I don't think I have!). That said, I think I'm definitely guilty of my desktop and my documents and downloads folders becoming a mess over time -- is this really a generational thing?
                          What uni is this? Warwick? (I only know of two student cinemas that still have the equipment to run film - and I'm always sad my uni isn't one of them - so this is a bit of a guess!)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by David Ferguson View Post
                            What uni is this? Warwick? (I only know of two student cinemas that still have the equipment to run film - and I'm always sad my uni isn't one of them - so this is a bit of a guess!)
                            It is! Very nice that people know who we are!

                            Do pop in for a visit if you ever for some reason find yourself in Coventry. I think one or two more of us still have a dusty Vic 5 in a corner somewhere that nobody knows how to use (I think we did get asked by the very excellent folk at Sheffield at one point if we could help them find a projectionist).

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                            • #15
                              Didn't Warwick have 70mm capability at one point?

                              Originally posted by Bobby Henderson
                              Here's another aggravation: even if you have your computer data safely backed-up (even on more than one volume and in more than one physical location) your files can get "bricked" by changes in computer applications meant to open and edit those files.
                              It's a problem, though in some ways less of a problem than I once feared it would be. Word 2019 can still open documents created with version 2 (the first version I used, in the early 1990s), though you have to change some security settings to let it. This is why, however, I try to keep files that I know I'm going to want to keep long term in formats that will likely be long-term reliable (e.g. PDF/A) and created using widespread standards.

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