Fatal accident on movie set - Alec Baldwin shoots cinematographer

[Bobby Henderson]

Yeah, there's a lot of gray area, here, but I come down on Alec Baldwin's side. He's as much a victim as the people who got shot.

Baldwin indeed may not be at fault. However, he was one of the producers of the movie. The producers set the tone for all kinds of policies, including how well safety procedures are followed. If Baldwin was one of the bosses blowing off safety concerns of crew members then he would be in some trouble.

Even if Baldwin wasn't setting safety policy he still made the mistake of pointing the pistol in an unsafe direction. Any gun capable of firing real bullets should be treated as if it is loaded with real bullets. Don't go pointing it at/near a camera until an actual take.

The armorer is the armorer. She definitely should have been the person to give out that gun immediately before it's use on that day, and should have checked it properly and not assume it to be in the same condition as the day before. It was not her job to let the AD do that or assume the same.

The situation is not that simple. Especially when you consider the "armorer" was a 24 year old woman with little experience and the AD was (apparently) a real asshole, yelling at crew members and generally throwing his weight around. I've seen all kinds of businesses and other types of organizations (civic clubs, non-profits, etc) where you'll have at least one or more of these people running around, domineering over others, trying to do their jobs for them. They're an "expert" at everyone else's job and are ready to jam their orders down the throats of others. The AD on that New Mexico movie set sounds like one of those kinds of people.

It's kind of a big ask for a young lady with little experience to stand up to a middle aged boss that meddles in the jobs of others. How do we know the AD isn't the one who brought real bullets onto the set? The guy was fired from another movie production a couple years ago for a similar, but not lethal, "accident."

It seems the more details I hear about this incident the more I feel like the AD is key culprit in this tragedy.

You can not expect actors on set immediately before rehearsing or performing to do the final check on their own. It may appear easy to do with a revolver, but there are much more complicated weapons than that and you simply do not want actors having to deal with that while they are doing THEIR job. They'd freak out on that responsibility.

IMHO, any actor taking a role that involves firing guns should be proficient in gun safety and proficient in the use of the specific weapons being used on screen in that role. That's part of the acting craft. Don't they want to look the part? Actors put in all kinds of work researching various roles. They'll spend time training to ride horses, motorcycles, etc. Gun use is a pretty common thing in movies. So the actors need to do their homework in that area, even if they're pacifists in private life.

It doesn't take more than a few seconds to open a revolver, semi-auto pistol, shotgun or rifle to see if it is loaded or not. The process is not difficult at all. Some buttons and levers are a little different from one pistol to the next. But it's not difficult to learn, especially if a competent armorer is on hand to help.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Baldwin indeed may not be at fault. However, he was one of the producers of the movie. The producers set the tone for all kinds of policies, including how well safety procedures are followed. If Baldwin was one of the bosses blowing off safety concerns of crew members then he would be in some trouble.

The term "Producer" is a bit of a wildcard term, it's often more a marketing term than anything else. That being said, it's unclear to me how much he was involved into the day-to-day operations of this shoot and how much he could've done to remedy the apparent lack of safety mentality among those that worked for this production.

[Randy Stankey]

The term "Producer" is a bit of a wildcard term, it's often more a marketing term than anything else.

That's part of the reason why my girlfriend's dad retired. He was getting to retirement age, anyhow. After he parted ways with his long-time production company, he went on to produce two other movies before he called it quits. He said that the movie business isn't like it used to be.

In the old days, the actors stood in front of the camera, the director stood behind the camera and the producer stood behind the director. (Proverbially speaking.) People had set jobs and responsibilities and they followed them. In his last movie, things got so out of hand that he, pretty much, walked around with his head in his hands the whole time. That's when he said, "I'm outta' here!"

As he told it, people were acting like they were high on themselves, acting like they were "big time." They didn't listen to what he said and were always trying to weasel their way around him. Costs were going through the roof. The movie cost $8 million to make and grossed $12.9 million. One of the things Dad was known for was controlling his budget so 2/3 of the gross being eaten up by production costs really got his goat.

To hear him tell it, most movie productions, today, are Faustian dramas filled with people who only want to be rich and famous and don't care about how much of other peoples' money they spend.

From what I hear about the production of "Rust," it was just like that but on steroids. No wonder things went bad!

Baldwin indeed may not be at fault. However, he was one of the producers of the movie.

Yeah, that throws a wrench in the monkey works. Doesn't it? If the atmosphere was as Faustian as it seems to have been, it messes things up even worse.

You were talking about actors needing firearms training before they use guns on the set. I couldn't agree more!
At MINIMUM, there needs to be a couple of days worth of instruction at a firing range with a good instructor. It isn't hard to use a gun safely but there is one thing that everybody should remember: Guns don't care who they kill. If you are in the line of fire when the hammer falls, you are dead! Simple as that!

That's the one thing that seems to have been forgotten. If somebody had remembered that one phrase... Guns don't care... this whole thing never would have happened.

[Bobby Henderson]

There are numerous reasons why actors should be proficient in the use of firearms and firearms safety if they're taking roles where simulated gunplay is involved. Obviously safety is the most important reason.

Another BIG reason for actors to know their shit when it comes to handling guns is the standards bar has been steadily raised over the years for how viewers expect to see guns handled on screen. Obviously productions are a long way away from the style of how guns were used in movies 50+ years ago. Lots of old black and white movies are laughably bad in their depictions of gun use compared to modern standards. Even during the decades of R-rated movies from the 1970's going into the 1990's more efforts were being made to make gun use in movies look more authentic. Military technical advisors really came into vogue during the 1980's in war movie productions. There are technical advisors for shows involving police and fire fighters. There were more expectations for actors to study and train for such roles.

It's not hard to see the difference between an actor who rarely ever handles guns at all versus one who is well practiced at it. The evidence is easy to see on screen. Real expertise in firearms use adds credibility to an actor's performance as a certain character. Tom Cruise looked like a real bad-ass in how he handled a H&K USP pistol in Collateral. I've already mentioned Keanu Reeves in John Wick. How about Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2: Judgment Day?

Added thought: There has been plenty of suggestions on news shows and elsewhere on the Internet to make all depictions of gun fire in movies go digital. I'm not a fan of it, even if I'm a computer graphics guy in my day job.

Some shows do a good bit of CGI-based gun fire. And it's often easy to spot. I was laughing at some simulated gun fire in an episode of The Walking Dead recently. It was pretty fake looking. While it's technically possible for CGI to do a convincing job simulating gun fire the technology can't do so without a LOT of human work put into it. Very few productions are going to spend that kind of time and money on CGI work. All guns have moving parts. The cylinder on a revolver rotates when fired. The slide on a semi-auto pistol blows back and rams forward on every shot, along with a shell casing being ejected. Layers of smoke get expelled. Overall it's a lot more than just a muzzle flash. Then there's the factor of how well an actor can pretend a pistol or rifle is being fired. I've never seen anyone do a good job of it. Real recoil is pretty different.

[Randy Stankey]

There are numerous reasons why actors should be proficient in the use of firearms and firearms safety if they're taking roles where simulated gunplay is involved. Obviously safety is the most important reason.

There is a guy in my town who is considered by many to be the kahuna when it comes to firearms. He was an armorer in the Marines and he's the go-to guy for most of the law enforcement agencies for gunsmithing and weapons training.

I have a Ruger 10/22 that I've tricked up to be a target gun for shooting NRA Rimfire Silhouettes. It's accurate enough to shoot the pips out of a playing card at 50 yds. I wanted him to polish the sear for smoother trigger pull. When you're shooting silhouettes, you don't want a "gravely" trigger.
The guy flat-out wouldn't do it because, when he put a trigger pull gauge on the gun it was only half a pound over the legal limit. He said that, if that gun ever double fires, I could find a couple of men in dark suits knocking on my door.

Basically, the guy knows his shit. If you live in Erie, PA and you want to take a class in firearms, go to Bob's Gun Shop. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.


Handgun 101 Firearm Training
November 21 @ 7:58 am - 5:00 pm

$150.00

November CLASS IS FULL.

This is a 9-10 hours basic introduction handgun class for the person who wants to become confident and familiar with their hand gun. It will cover nomenclature, principles of marksmanship, safety, escalation of force, and much more. The average breakdown for this class is approximately 70% classroom and 30% range time. You will need a hand gun and 100 rounds of ammo.
This class is designed to introduce the responsible handgun owner to the basics of how to use their handguns in a safe, yet efficient manner. If you own a gun and are truly concerned with the safe handling, storage, and skills associated with the use of your firearm for the protection of yourself and family this is an excellent class to receive that basic knowledge.
This class will help put the first time gun owner at ease with handling their weapon.

SUBJECTS COVERED:

1. Handgun systems and domestic self defense 2. Ammunition applications and liability 3. Principles of marksmanship 4. Administrative handling of hand guns 5. Safe gun handling

6. Static dry firing 7. Live fire, individual coaching 8. Live fire, precision shooting 9. Cleaning and Maintenance 10. Principles of self defense/Force continuum

EQUIPMENT REQUIRED:

• Serviceable handgun
• Eye protection
• Ear protection
• 100 rounds ammunition

Suitable for Beginners to Intermediate.

It's not hard to see the difference between an actor who rarely ever handles guns at all versus one who is well practiced at it.

I can't tell you how many times I've watched a movie or TV show where some "pretty boy" is limp-wristing a Glock while trying to look edgy and cool!

How can you suspend disbelief while watching a show but all you can think is, "What a wanker!"

I think the same thing when I see CGI gunfire. Suspension of disbelief goes right out the window!

[Leo Enticknap]

A nine-hour class covering all that for just $150?! He's underselling himself. I've been to cinema equipment training classes that cover a similar number of topics that cost $2-3K.

Lots of old black and white movies are laughably bad in their depictions of gun use compared to modern standards.

There are also some that are frighteningly realistic, on the set of which Dave Halls would have looked like an anally retentive health and safety officer. One of my favorite Westerns, Hell's Hinges, was made before continuity editing (in particular, cutting on action and eyeline matching) was fully understood (except by D.W. Griffith, who hadn't yet gotten around to teaching the rest of Hollywood how to do it!), with the result that there are several wide and medium shots in which guns are pointed at people and discharged with a clearly visible retort, even if they were loaded with blanks. One early scene tries to convey how heathen and irreligious the inhabitants of the town are, by showing a bunch of cowboys shooting at a tin can with a drawing of the pastor on it. The can is thrown in the air, and then William S. Hart's character shoots at it several times, from among the crowd. Given that the can is seen to bounce in response to the gunshots, I can't see any way that could have been filmed other than by firing live rounds into the air from among a crowd of extras, given the visual effects technology available in 1916.

[Bobby Henderson]

Decades ago there was a lot of practices on film sets that were not safe, or even ethical. In some of the news coverage about the Rust shooting incident I heard one story about rather sadistic practical jokes the war hero turned actor Audie Murphy would pull on set. He would sneak up to someone on set, put an unloaded pistol up to the person's chest but then fire a loaded gun he had hidden behind his back. It would scare the living hell out of the prank victim. For a second they wouldn't know if they had actually just been shot.

I can't tell you how many times I've watched a movie or TV show where some "pretty boy" is limp-wristing a Glock while trying to look edgy and cool!

Limp-wristing a semi-auto pistol is a good way to get malfunctions, such as failure to feed from the magazine or a "stove pipe" - a spent shell casing gets caught in the ejection port. I don't know how limp wristing the pistol would look "cool." I usually see that from people who are too fearful of guns to handle them confidently.

The "cool pose" crap I laugh at: that "gangsta" nonsense where people hold the gun sideways. That stupid shit got started in the 1980's and is still enduring to some degree. Another one I've seen, often from surveillance video of actual crimes, is the guy holding his arm high up over his head and pointing the pistol downward. What the hell is that? If I ever have to get into a gunfight I hope the guys shooting at me are doing so using those street poses. I'll be more than happy to look like a nerd with my two hand stance, elbows slightly bent and thumbs forward on the gun. I might not look "cool," but I'm gonna put bullets in my target, real fast.

Hopefully it won't be too much longer until those gangsta shooting poses look just as silly as the old timey movies where actors would jab the pistol forward from their hip when firing a shot. I guess the extra punching action was added to speed up the bullet somehow!

A nine-hour class covering all that for just $150?! He's underselling himself. I've been to cinema equipment training classes that cover a similar number of topics that cost $2-3K.

Here in Oklahoma a standard 8-hour safety course (which used to be required to obtain conceal carry permits) costs only $60. The cost is state-mandated.

[Randy Stankey]

Limp-wristing a semi-auto pistol is a good way to get malfunctions...

Sure is! In fact, Bob, the firearms teacher, would come by and slap you on the wrist if he caught you doing that. He's a retired Marine. That's the way he teaches, except toned down for us "civvies." In fact, on of the things he's known for is teaching firearms classes for women. IIRC, he occasionally teaches classes for women only. The theory is that it's harder for women to learn when they are surrounded by a bunch of guys acting all macho and stuff.

The fee for his classes is only $150 but, for this area, that's a fair price. Consider it a kind of loss leader for his gun shop business. Remember, you need 100 rounds to take the class. Where are you going to buy that much ammo to shoot up in one day? Sure, he'll sell you reloaded range ammo but it's a good bet you'll be buying from him. It's also an open secret that, if you don't have your own gun, Bob will rent you one for use in the class. Of course, it's all arranged and paid for in advance. Then, if you want to buy your own gun, guess who will be the first guy you think of?

There's also another open secret at Bob's place. If you buy one box of range ammo and you bring in ten boxes of spent brass (of the same kind), he'll give you a second box for free.

Sure, Bob's classes are pretty cheap but he knows how to run a business.

...I don't know how limp wristing the pistol would look "cool." I usually see that from people who are too fearful of guns to handle them confidently.

When I said that I saw TV characters "limp-wrising" a gun, I meant it as a figure of speech. To be honest, I don't watch much mainstream television. In the last ten years, the number of mainstream TV shows I have watched could be counted on one hand. I probably only watch two or three new movies in a year, as well.

The main reason is because I see so many "pretty boy" actors, pretending to be edgy and cool. The writing and production values aren't interesting enough to make it worthwhile to suspend disbelief just to see some wanker pretending to be a cop. (or whatever)

...such as failure to feed from the magazine or a "stove pipe"

Yeah, I've had many-a stovepipe when I was working on my target rifle. A 10/22 wants a round with enough blowback to recycle the action. Remember, a 10/22 is supposed to be a sporting gun. When you're shooting ammo like Eley Club out of a tricked-up 10/22, those kinds of rounds don't have enough "oomph." Wanna' know how I solved that? I found a guy who built me a mainspring that is progressively wound. The first third of its length is wound very loosely so that the action can start to move before the tighter windings at the back come into play. I can shoot match ammo, all day long, with virtually no stovepipes unless the gun gets dirty. You just have to remember to put the spring in facing the right direction after you strip the gun to clean it. (Yes, it's also a custom guide rod and activating lever that can be disassembled for cleaning where the factory setup isn't so easy to take apart and reassemble.)

Here in Oklahoma a standard 8-hour safety course (which used to be required to obtain conceal carry permits) costs only $60. The cost is state-mandated.

In Erie, PA, there isn't a mandated safety course before getting your permit but, if you go to the courthouse and bring your certificate from one of Bob's classes, your application will be, pretty much, rubber stamped. (Pending a criminal records check, of course.) They'll be like, "Oh? You're one of Bob's students? Sign here..."

[Marcel Birgelen]

A nine-hour class covering all that for just $150?! He's underselling himself. I've been to cinema equipment training classes that cover a similar number of topics that cost $2-3K.

The big difference here is your target audience. Bob is probably selling the same "tricks" to his audience he's done a million times, whereas a cinema equipment training class will sell to only a very selective audience. Also, gun safety isn't nearly as fast-moving as digital cinema equipment, so your gun safety course will stay relevant for a far longer time.

[Randy Stankey]

Yes, Bob's Gun Shop has been a fixture in this area for a long time. As long as I can remember. His act is pretty well honed.

He's a Marine so he runs a pretty tight ship, so to speak. Because of that, there are a lot of people who either love him or hate him.
You're always going to have some Pennsyltucky rednecks who act as if guns should be part of the good, old boy's club. Even though he tones things down for the general public, people like your average redneck think he is too authoritarian.

From the technical perspective, he's the best gunsmith around. I like to work on my own guns because it's my hobby but I also limit myself to using hand tools. If I needed to have any more advanced work done, I wouldn't go to anyone else.

If you remember, when I wanted to have the hammer and sear on my gun polished just to smooth out the trigger pull, he refused to do it.

You've got to respect a guy who won't take your money when he thinks something isn't safe.