$18 for a beer at the 2022 PGA Championship (Tulsa Oklahoma)

[Frank Cox]

I've never agreed with the whole tipping thing, largely because it's so unfair to everyone involved on both sides of the transaction.

Service X is advertised as costing $Y but in reality it's $Y plus some percentage, so in reality it's a form of false advertising.

I don't expect my customers to give me tips, and I don't see a lot of difference between what I do and what a bartender does in terms of labour involved and services provided.

Why does the guy who spent ten seconds pulling a beer out of the fridge behind the bar for me expect a $1 tip when the cashier at Walmart who spent ten minutes ringing up my purchases and putting everything into bags gets nothing extra? (Have you ever tipped your Walmart or grocery store cashier?)

[Randy Stankey]

... Why does the guy who spent ten seconds pulling a beer out of the fridge behind the bar for me expect a $1 tip...

I grew up in a bar. It was my home where I lived, from the time I was born until I went away to college. I would, often, come home from school and do my homework, sitting at the bar, drinking a Coke while customers drank beer. When I was about fifteen, I figured out that I could dump out the Coke, rinse out the can and fill it from the beer tap while nobody was looking. Nobody EVER even suspected.

I can tell you, without a doubt, that a good bartender does a lot more than just pull pints.

Unless he works in a chain establishment that has a dishwasher, the bartender often has to wash used glasses and...
Empty ash trays. Pick up trash. Wipe the bar down after every customer. Sweep and mop the floors, often several times a day if customers spill or track in dirt. Manage money. Keep track of checks, take food orders and serve them at the bar or shunt them off to the waitress. Keep the till in balance. He is often the "Point Man" for the wait staff, calling out new customers who want to be seated at tables. He is often the first line of defense for security. If there is a bouncer, he can call for help but, if there isn't one, he might be the only one who has to deal with troublesome customers.

A bartender has to do all of that and more, all the while, making sure that customers' glasses are full, acting as "Entertainment Director" and even consoling that down-and-out, lonely guy, sitting at the end of the bar. When it's all over, the bartender cleans up the place, turns off the lights, locks the doors, turns in the till then he is the last one out at the end of the night.

I was about sixteen or seventeen when I watched my mother throw a drunk down the stairs after she shut him off.
The guy came in, half in the bag when he walked through the door. He was one of those loudmouthed assholes who jingles the change in his pocket. He drank one beer and started getting uppity... "Effin-this... GD-that..." My mother had enough.

My mother poured him a "short glass" (a pint glass only about 1/4 full) and shut him off. "This is your last one. Come back tomorrow." She gave the guy a perfect out: Slug down the beer, toss a dime on the bar (AKA: The "Fuck You Tip.") and walk out. Instead, he started calling my mother names... bitch, whore, etc.

Mom FLIPPED on the guy! She threw the beer in his face and pushed him over, backward, off the bar stool, onto the floor where he laid on his back like a turtle. She ran around the bar, kicked the guy in the nuts, grabbed him by the shirt collar and hauled his drunk ass to the door. He stood in the doorway, teetering at the edge of the stairs.

"Get the FUCK out of my bar or else I'll call the cops," she yelled!
With one swift kick in the ass, she sent him tumbling down the steps, ass over tin cups! She slammed the door and locked it.

Now, this is where it gets funny... There were two other guys in the bar; Rich and Marvin. One was a truck driver. The other was Chairman of the Township Board of Supervisors. They just stood there, with their arms crossed over their chests, watching the whole thing take place. I sat at the other end of the bar, drinking my "Coke-Beer" and pretended to do my homework.

The place was dead quiet for about a half-hour after that. The only thing I remember being said, was, "Hey, isn't there a baseball game on TV?"

And, bartenders don't do anything? Yeah...Right...

Those two-bit tips put my sorry ass through college!

[Frank Cox]

You still haven't said why a bartender is somehow more entitled to a tip than a store cashier?

If it's the physical-force aspect of the job, have you tipped the security guard who's watching the store you're shopping in?

If it's the cleaning aspect, have you tipped the guy who just drove by you on the floor cleaning machine at the mall?

And if not, then why is that?

I've had a few occasions where I've thrown people out of my theatre, and I do the cleaning up after the shows too.

I still don't expect my customers to give me tips.

[Randy Stankey]

Projectionists don't do anything except push the "start" button and watch movies, all day.

Ushers don't do anything but tear tickets and say, "Enjoy the show!"

Managers don't do anything except chat up the girls in the box office, between shows.

In a theater, the center of attention is the screen and what's showing on it.
In a bar, it's not the beer. Anybody can go to the In-and-Out and pick up a two-four.

People go to the bar for the atmosphere. To meet people. To bitch about their bosses at work. To pick up a date or to just watch a ballgame on TV without the wife and kids running around.

The bartender is the captain of the ship. The center of attention. He is in charge of making sure that the beer flows out and the money flows in.

He does all of that, making $2.83 per hour... AND... He has to tip out his barback, his head waitress and his cook. That's usually 10%, off the top...IF he declares all of his tips but who would do that if he has to pay taxes on his tips? Instead, his tip-out rate is calculated, based on sales.

A bartender does all that yet he officially takes home less than $25.00 at the end of an eight hour shift.

That mentally handicapped guy who sweeps floors at the mall grosses almost $60.00 for the same hours.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Tipping is very much a cultural thing...

Over here in "Western Europe" tipping exist, but it isn't something you're more or less required to do. You may give a little tip if you really enjoyed the service, but that usually doesn't exceed 5% of the total sum to be paid. The rule of thumb over here is that any hidden charges are forbidden or at least frowned upon. Over here, waiters and service staff are expected to earn a living wage and should not be dependent on tips. This may have some impact on the quality of the service though, although tipping culture doesn't seem to be a guarantee for good service.

In Italy, it's common to receive a service charge per person, if you sit down at a restaurant. This charge needs to be listed in the menu they offer you. A 15% service fees are also common in France, but this is technically, not a tip. In most Nordic countries, people will look strange at you when you tip more than 10%...

Italy used to be known for their many tourist traps, where you'd sit down with no price list in sight and would get horrendously overcharged afterwards, but it seems that most establishments have since learned that a more sustainable approach to tourists is better to their image and bottom margin, so those practices are mostly a thing of the past.

Whenever I'm in the U.S. I need to get used to the fact that ripping off customers seems to be considered something of an art form, especially if you're in a big city, especially if that city is named New York or Las Vegas... Stuff like hidden service fees, taxes and whatnot which get added to your bill usually don't entice me to tip very much...

[Randy Stankey]

Another thing to consider is that, in Canada, the proper waiter seats his customers at the table, takes their order, brings their food then buzzes off. It is considered rude and intrusive if the waiter has more than a quick chat with customers.

In the US, the waiter is expected to socialize and swoop in if the customer wants anything. They would be pissed off if they had to get up from the table to find a waiter.

Canadians, broadly speaking, want to socialize with their dinner companions without a waiter hovering over them. Americans want their waiter to stand in a corner, staring at the wall like a soldier, at the ready, in case the customer sneezes so that he can bring a napkin to wipe their nose. (Hyperbole, yes.)

That, right there... Culturally based notions of what constitutes "good service" plays a large part in determining tipping expectations.

In Europe, being a waiter might be a good start to a gainful career. One could start out as a front-line waiter then work his way up to Head Waiter, Maitre D' or even House Manager. In the US, waiting tables is something college students do to pay the rent until they find a "real job."

[Lyle Romer]

It is disturbing proposals for ocean water desalination plants are being rejected in California. They have to do something. I'm not wrong about ground water supplies in various parts of California getting depleted. Right now 90% of Texas is in severe or worse drought. Reservoirs and underground aquifers are getting strained. As a result policy makers are being forced to have serious conversations about alternatives, like building ocean water desalination plants. That would be a hell of a thing if a deep red state like Texas could get ahead of California on something like desalination.

100% agree with you on this. I understand that desalination is expensive and somewhat energy intensive but the fact that there hasn't been huge desalination capacity built in California that has had water shortages for decades is incomprehensible. They could even build pipelines and export water to Nevada and Arizona. It would add expense but at least they'd have enough water.

[Leo Enticknap]

I thought the percentage of urban/suburban water use in California would be larger. Even though the state has lost some population there is still nearly 40 million people living in California. Nearly 12.5 million are in the Los Angeles MSA. The breakdown I see by category is 50% environmental, 40% agricultural and 10% urban.

The 6% figure has been cited repeatedly in a talk radio show that I often listen to driving back from field calls. Yes, they are polemical ranters, but they don't usually get basic facts wrong. But even if it is 10%, telling HOAs to shut off their lawn sprinklers is not going to make a significant impact on the problem.

That would be a hell of a thing if a deep red state like Texas could get ahead of California on something like desalination.

The thing about deep red states is that they tend to do whatever is necessary to safeguard their economies, with all other considerations being secondary to that. I'd speculate that the power outages over the winter were a wake up call to the effect that reliable infrastructure providing the necessities is a big necessary, and that this will be an increasing priority in Texas going forward. Everyone who suffered when the power went out are unlikely to have much time for politicians who don't see it that way.

As for desalination, it's one of the few industrial processes that is actually very well suited to being powered by renewable energy. Unlike electricity, it is relatively cheap and easy to store the processed water in tanks until it's needed, and so a cloudy day that generates less solar power, or a calm day that generates less wind power, doesn't matter as much as it does for other applications.

[Bobby Henderson]

Countries like Japan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the UAE are pretty big on using desalination plants. The US has some desalination plants, but most of those are used to treat brackish ground water rather than ocean water.

One of the big concerns about ocean water desalination plants is the designs of the intakes. Poorly designed water intakes can kill a lot of mature fish and larvae. The worry is similar to that of wind turbines and their impacts on birds. Although domestic house cats kill far more birds every year than wind turbines. No one is making noises about banning pet cats.

You still haven't said why a bartender is somehow more entitled to a tip than a store cashier?

One reason Randy didn't mention is bartenders need to be much more observant of their customers to avoid getting into deep trouble themselves. A bartender or server can get into big trouble for serving alcohol to someone under age or selling drinks to another adult who then passes them to an underage person in that establishment. Bartenders can also get into big trouble for over-serving someone, particularly if that person goes out and causes a fatal car accident. A grocery store cashier can sell someone a six-pack of beer, but all they have to do is check their ID (and now they have to scan a digital code on the back of the license). That's all. A bartender has more responsibilities.

Here in Oklahoma ABLE Commission can be particularly ruthless. They'll actually pay 18-20 year old "adults" to go into bars and restaurants to try to order alcohol drinks. If they succeed, it's a double whammy. The specific bartender or waitress/waiter who served the kid gets fined/charged and the business itself also gets fined/charged. ABLE likes to pick the worst times to run their stings, hitting bars, night clubs and restaurants when they're slammed with customers. They'll also hire people under 21 who look over 21, like some heavy-set 18 year old who can grow out a full beard. Some people significantly older than 21 get their delicate panties in a twist if they get carded. That invites curt responses from the bartender, "I don't care if you're 70 years old; I'm not risking getting fined so show me your Goddamn ID." I don't think ABLE can let the kids they hire for stings use fake IDs. That might cross the lines into entrapment. But it wouldn't surprise if they were doing so anyway.

[James Wyrembelski]

I was in the restaurant industry for close to 15 years. I also was a bartender for about 5 of those. I don't know of any places around here that paid server wages to bartenders which was around the 3.20/hr mark at the time. To Bobby's point, yes, we do have a considerable higher amount of responsibility than that of a cashier or similar job. In many places around here, including where I worked, the bartender was generally third in command. Serving alcohol comes with more responsibility than one might think. Everything Bobby said about liability and also being checked on by liquor control are true in pretty much every state. Liquor control will even send a secret shopper in to observe just how we HANDLE the alcohol.

That being said, I was compensated fairly. Does everyone tip? No. Is it really all that common to have crappy tips and people that flat out give you nothing? No. Should you make a career out of it? Depends, what do you want out of life? Can you meet basic needs by serving/bartending? Yes, but depends on the location. I live in a very small rural community and I worked at both of the more popular restaurants over the years. The family style diner could get you a decent wage. The restaurant/bar across the street? If you actually worked an 8 hour shift (not the standard 4-5 hours many restaurants work servers) you could pocket 300/400 a day in cash. Just expect to hustle and get very dirty by the end of the day. In many cases your top servers and generally bartenders make more in hard wages than the manager. If you moved up to management you generally take a bit of a pay cut but your resume gets a bump and perhaps you get some benefits so it evens out in the end.

[Frank Cox]

I really don't see where I said that bartenders don't do anything. What I said was that a bartender who spends ten seconds handing me a beer (and expecting a tip) didn't do a whole lot for me personally at that point. He opened the fridge and handed me a beer and that was it.

However, I can accept that I may have used a bad example when I said bartenders (though I really don't think so). I can also accept that bartending and waiting on tables is a difficult job; that's why I've never done any of those things.

In Saskatchewan (and I think the rest of Canada) the minimum wage is the minimum wage and it doesn't matter if you're waiting on tables or mowing grass.

When I go to a restaurant and the staff expects me to tip them, but when I go to the park I'm not expected to tip the guy who's picking up the trash. Or possibly more relevantly, when I go to Le'Posh for dinner I'm expected to tip the staff but when go to McDonalds I'm not even though the McDonalds staff are working at least as hard as the folks at Le'Posh.

I believe that's unfair both ways. That was my original point, and it seems to have become lost somewhere.

[Randy Stankey]

I thought that giving examples of how people say that those who work in movie theaters don't do any real work would have explained it.

There is a human bias toward overestimating one's own actions and devaluing the work of others.
Most people don't think that theater workers do "real work" but they do. They often work harder than most.

My girlfriend is an excellent crocheter.
She'll see something on TV and she'll pause the program to stop and examine something on the screen. Then, she'll take a piece of graph paper, make a pattern and crochet an exact copy.

We were watching reruns of "Breaking Bad" on TV when she paused the show. I was like, "WTF?"
Turned out that there was a crocheted afghan, draped over the sofa in Walt's living room and she wanted to see if she could copy it.
She did...In spades!

She spent a couple-few weeks working on the project and worrying about whether she got the pattern right or whether she used the right colors. All together, she put WAY more than 100 hours into the project.

How much do you think she could sell that afghan for?
If she put in 100 hrs. @ $7.85/hr. then spent $50.00 on materials and supplies, the blanket would be worth over $800!
Consider that her work is virtually flawless with absolutely even rows and zero dropped stitches, it wouldn't be too much to ask for $1,000.
She entered her work in the County Fair, a few years ago, and walked away with three ribbons for three entries. She almost swept the competition on her first time out.

Not even on Etsy or Ebay could she get $500 for her work! You'd be lucky to get $100 for it!

Tipping is the same way. Most people devalue the work of others, all the while over-valuing their own work.
Everybody wants to get everything in life for free, all the while taking top dollar for anything they do.

No! Most people don't give a flyin' fuck about anything more than six inches in front of their noses!

[Bobby Henderson]

I really don't see where I said that bartenders don't do anything. What I said was that a bartender who spends ten seconds handing me a beer (and expecting a tip) didn't do a whole lot for me personally at that point. He opened the fridge and handed me a beer and that was it.

Bartenders have to keep track of customers, their bar tabs and what each customer likes drinking. There is a sort of "art" to being a good bartender. The job takes quite a bit of organizational skills and even more in the way of social skills. A good bartender needs the ability to be everything from the life of the party to being invisible depending on the context of what customers are doing. People tend to hang out in a bar longer than they do restaurants. A bartender will probably interact with a customer more than a server in a restaurant.

Everything Bobby said about liability and also being checked on by liquor control are true in pretty much every state. Liquor control will even send a secret shopper in to observe just how we HANDLE the alcohol.

Oh yeah, ABLE does that "secret shopper" stuff here in Oklahoma too. Aside from not selling to minors and not over-serving customers, there's plenty of other rules to follow. My civic club is going to be running the beer tent at our upcoming "Freedom Fest" event on July 2 (the 4th is on a Monday). When we sell someone a can of beer we have to open it before giving it to the customer. One person can buy no more than two drinks at a time. It could be two cans of beer or it could be two pitchers of draft beer, just no more than two of whatever it is.

[Frank Cox]

None of this answers my original question.

Why is it that a bartender spending ten seconds handing me a beer is worthy of a $1 tip, while a cashier spending five minutes bagging my groceries (and trying to smile at me) is worthy of none?

[Marcel Birgelen]

None of this answers my original question.

Why is it that a bartender spending ten seconds handing me a beer is worthy of a $1 tip, while a cashier spending five minutes bagging my groceries (and trying to smile at me) is worthy of none?

Sales people often get a lot of their income in the form of bonuses based on commissions, that's to motivate them to actually get new customers on the hook. The same may be true for waiters and bartenders, as a big part of their function is actually more sales than anything else...