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Yes, Hertz put them all on one lot not to far from me. That was a couple months ago, and most of them are still there. The 07 Hummer H3 came from Hertz car sales in Salt Lake City, and to be honest it was a very good deal. It only had about 3200 miles on it, and I only paid 58% of new.
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In case anyone remains skeptical about claims made of the dangers of lithium ion batteries, this from the San Bernardino Sun:
453063360_876381461201485_2520628286702476714_n.webpFire on 15 Freeway in Baker remains ‘volatile’ after lithium-ion battery blaze, CHP says
By Hunter Lee | hlee@scng.com
UPDATED: July 27, 2024 at 11:47 p.m.
The northbound 15 Freeway lanes in Baker remained closed on Saturday, July 27, after a semi-truck hauling a container of lithium-ion batteries overturned on Friday morning, blocking the route to Las Vegas, authorities said.
The truck overturned in the northbound lanes with the trailer carrying the batteries catching on fire after the crash, according to the San Bernardino County Fire Department. Authorities closed the north and southbound freeway lanes between Afton Canyon and Basin Road and called for a hazardous material response.
A Saturday update from the California Highway Patrol said northbound lanes were closed at Harvard Road, with southbound lanes open. Heavy traffic was reported on the eastbound 40 Freeway because of traffic being detoured from the 15.
Fires involving lithium-ion batteries risk the threat of a larger fire or explosion and require massive amounts of water to extinguish.
On Saturday morning, the fire department said the CHP for a time alternated the north and southbound flow on the southbound lanes to manage the heavy traffic build-up. At midday, the CHP in Barstow said reopening one lane of the northbound freeway did not seem likely anytime soon.
Multiple attempts were made to move the container from the freeway shoulder to open land using heavy equipment, including an excavator and a dozer, the fire department said. Ground improvements and grading were done to move the container to a safe area for long-term mitigation and cleanup.
“However, the container’s weight, exceeding 75,000 pounds, has made these efforts unsuccessful so far,” the department stated.
The department said it is working with other agencies and resources to arrange for additional heavy equipment for the removal of the container, “an effort that will continue throughout the day.”
The CHP said in their midday update: “Emergency crews on scene are still assessing the situation and evaluating options. The situation and fire remain volatile. The previous anticipated time of opening lanes will not be achievable.”
The fire department said: “The primary concern is the air quality due to the hazardous materials and chemicals involved. Air monitoring is assessing for hydrogen cyanide, chlorine, and sulfur dioxide. These chemicals pose significant health risks at elevated levels, with hydrogen cyanide and chlorine being particularly dangerous even at low concentrations.”
A supply stop was set up at the Clyde V Kane Rest Stop off the northbound 15, south of Afton Canyon Road to provide water to motorists stuck in traffic.
Authorities suggested drivers avoid northbound travel on the 15 and seek alternate routes through the 40 Freeway.
They also advised:
– Digital Mapping Systems: Be aware that alternative routes suggested by GPS and mapping systems may include dirt roads and trails not suitable for most vehicles.
– Unsuitable Terrain: These routes can lead to vehicles getting stuck, which complicates emergency efforts and diverts resources.
– Avoid Off-Road: If not equipped for off-road travel, avoid taking these alternative routes.
– Current Temperatures: Near Baker, temperatures are around 110°F.
– Emergency Crews: Our crews are contending with extreme heat during mitigation operations.
– Travel Advisory: Vehicles not already in traffic should avoid congested areas.
– Plan Ahead: Ensure you have adequate water and resources while traveling.
– Prepare: Plan your route ahead of time to avoid delays and stay safe.
27xp-highway-fire-superJumbo.webp
Reported on the radio just now that the 15 fully reopened at 3.40a this morning, almost two full days after the accident. The bottom line is that these things are so dangerous that a single TEU container full of them can close the only arterial freeway that directly connects two major metros (LA and Vegas) for that long.
BTW, if the container and its contents really did weigh 75,000lb (about 37-38 tons), I'm wondering if the trailer was overloaded, if its tires were a bit worn, and that, in combination of the stretch of the freeway between Yermo and Baker being two lanes only and with some significant bends and gradients, caused it to come off the road. I've encountered big rigs doing 80-90 on that stretch (the CHP doesn't seem to care), and if something that heavy, with tires in poor condition and the road surface very hot took a bend too fast, the rest is history. The first photo does show the wreck on the apex of a bend, and no other vehicles appear, or are reported, to have been involved.Last edited by Leo Enticknap; 07-28-2024, 10:34 AM.Comment
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Cops and truck drivers are in the same Union. So of course the cops let some of the truckers antics slide...
Have driven.that route many times, sometimes after Cinemacon to go visit friends in the L.A. area. There is almost always one big rig broke down or in.a pile up some where along the way. But between Salt Lake and Vegas everything is usually normal. The bad part about the 15 once you get in to CA, is there are almost no places to do a reroute. You are pretty much stuck there...Comment
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X is the approx. accident site. Assuming that you were coming south from Vegas, your only options are to backtrack to Nipton Road, and the cut across to the 95 to the 40, or head north from Baker through Death Valley (not fun in 120-130 middle of the day heat), and then back down onto the 395. Nipton Road is likely not possible for a big rig (hairpin turns, etc.): for everyone else, that route is a 150-mile, three-hour detour. The same likely applies to big rigs and the Death Valley route (though I don't know for sure, because I haven't driven that entire diversion route), and that's more like a 4-5 hour detour. Bringing this back to topic, if you're in an EV, you're in trouble: even if you charge up fully in Baker (and in a situation like this, there will be a long line to use the Tesla chargers there), it's likely 200 miles or 200-250 to the next public charger, depending on which diversion route you use. With a/c running and the battery capacity degraded by extremely hot weather, you'd be on the very edge of most EVs' realistic range.Comment
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Yep! No good options for the EV folks. Same thing happened in Skokie, IL last Winter. Lots of people had to have their Tesla's towed to other charge stations 20 to 30 miles away. Now Musk says he may stop using the 18650 cells in.his battery packs...Comment
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Incidentally, the getaway drive scene in Drive a Crooked Road was shot on Nipton Road. It's been improved a lot since, but the movie still gives you a fair idea of what to expect.Comment
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I doubt there will ever be a risk-free technology that's able to concentrate the amount of energy you need to operate a car into the space practically for a car to carry. Even the stuff used by most cars on the planet today, gasoline, while relatively stable in "room temperature conditions", comes with some special handling instructions.Originally posted by Leo Enticknap View Post
If you don't cheap out on it, then lithium based batteries can be constructed and operated in a very safe manner, in such a manner that even if stuff goes haywire, there should be ample time left to get out of the hazard zone. This may require some rethinking of how we handle there thing called "car", but should not be a major nuisance, as long as we make sure the industry delivers safe products. Luckily, our governments never failed us on that one...
The problem with lithium is simply the availability. Due to the lack of similar efficient replacement, lithium based batteries made it into everything and that's where the problem is. Even if there is enough lithium left in the crust of the earth to fulfill our immediate needs, the question remains if we do want to get it there, as those large-scale operations do have the tendency to affect entire ecosystems... which in turn, may not really help the idea of battery-based cars improving ones ecological footprint...Comment
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Well said!Originally posted by Marcel Birgelen View Post
In 2023, a gasoline tanker fire destroyed a bridge in Philadelphia, shutting down I-95 for weeks. It took five months for the highway to resume to normal operations, according to an article published by WHYY.
Some video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q98_CL9VJEs
Screenshot 2024-08-07 at 11-58-39 Massive flames consume I-95 bridge after tanker truck crash - YouTube.png
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Doc Brown brought us Mr. Fusion in the 80's but Big Oil bought the patents and destroyed the plans!Originally posted by Marcel Birgelen View Post
I doubt there will ever be a risk-free technology that's able to concentrate the amount of energy you need to operate a car into the space practically for a car to carry. Even the stuff used by most cars on the planet today, gasoline, while relatively stable in "room temperature conditions", comes with some special handling instructions.
If you don't cheap out on it, then lithium based batteries can be constructed and operated in a very safe manner, in such a manner that even if stuff goes haywire, there should be ample time left to get out of the hazard zone. This may require some rethinking of how we handle there thing called "car", but should not be a major nuisance, as long as we make sure the industry delivers safe products. Luckily, our governments never failed us on that one...
The problem with lithium is simply the availability. Due to the lack of similar efficient replacement, lithium based batteries made it into everything and that's where the problem is. Even if there is enough lithium left in the crust of the earth to fulfill our immediate needs, the question remains if we do want to get it there, as those large-scale operations do have the tendency to affect entire ecosystems... which in turn, may not really help the idea of battery-based cars improving ones ecological footprint...
Realistically, some sort of miniature fusion reactor is probably the only way to get to a risk free technology that meets the requirements of practicality for a car since you would need to carry very little fuel for a very long range. However, I don't think we'll see that technology developed in our lifetimes.Comment
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Scott,Originally posted by Scott Jentsch View Post
Imagine if that had been a Semi Truck carrying a full load of lithium batteries... Lithium batteries burn at 5K degrees F. Structural steel melts at around 2500 F. While a gasoline fire burns at about 1500 degrees F. Parts of that bridge would have disappeared into puddles of molten steel...Comment
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Admittedly, (a) this article only covers the UK, and (b) it only looks at one of the costs of running a car (fuel), but even so...
IMHO, they would be crazy to rescind the "luxury car" tax on EVs, because it would remove the pressure on manufacturers to make them more affordable. The fact that two thirds of them cost around $55K or more is why sales of them (on both sides of the Atlantic) are falling off a cliff: very wealthy people who want one as a virtue signal now already have one (and the ability to charge it at home in their garage, meaning that they don't have to use public chargers). Most drivers who remain can't afford one, and live in apartments or small houses reliant on on-street parking.Running an electric car is twice as expensive as a petrol one
Return trip from London to Penzance costs £148 for electrics vehicles compared to £77 for petrol cars as prices at roadside chargers surge
Henry Bodkin
Senior reporter
20 September 2024, 1.46pm
Running an electric vehicle (EV) can cost more than 24p per mile, while a diesel vehicle is 12.5p.
It costs as much as 80p per kilowatt hour to charge an EV using a rapid or ultra-rapid device on the roadside, according to data from the app ZapMap.
A typical electric car will travel 3.3 miles for every kWh of electricity used, meaning rapid and ultra-rapid chargers currently cost the equivalent of 24.1p per mile, calculations by The Times suggest.
Slower chargers cost 16.4p per mile.
This is around double the average diesel car, which will do 43 miles per gallon, resulting in a cost of 12.5p per mile at current prices. A typical petrol car costs 14.5p per mile, according to the analysis.
A return journey from London to Penzance would cost £148 in an electric car using rapid chargers, the Times said, compared with £77 in a diesel car and £89 using petrol.
It added that at-home charging is much cheaper at less than a third of the price of the average rapid charger.
ZapMap found that prices at rapid chargers have increased 5 per cent over the past year, despite a 30 per cent decrease in the wholesale cost of electricity.
This has coincided with a fall in the price of oil.
Even drivers who choose slower public chargers – the threshold is 50 Wh of power, allowing a full recharge in around 30 minutes – are paying more per mile than petrol and diesel drivers.
There was a 40 per cent increase in the number of rapid or ultra-rapid charging stations across Britain, bringing the total to more than 12,500.
However, recent figures show sales of electric cars have significantly slowed.
They account for 17.2 per cent of all new registrations since the beginning of 2024. This marks a decrease from the 18.7 per cent high in the latter half of 2022.
According to analysis, rapid and ultra-rapid chargers currently cost electric car drivers the equivalent of 24.1p per mile, while slower chargers cost the equivalent of 16.4p per mile.
Mike Hawes, chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers, told The Times: “It’s tough out there. Levels of demand are much, much softer.”
Sales of electric cars in Europe are performing even worse than in the UK, with figures showing registrations were down by 44 per cent in August.
At-home charging is normally significantly cheaper than using public points. However, a large number of households in the UK – nearly half – live in either terraced properties or flats, meaning they cannot use a driveway or garage to allow charging at home.
The AA has called for the Government to synchronise the level of VAT on chargers, which is now 20 per cent, with the rate levied on at-home electricity, which stands at 5 per cent.
Thom Groot, founder of the Electric Car Scheme, said: “We need to keep stimulating demand with incentives and supporting consumers in making the switch. The fact that people who charge at home pay less VAT than those who use public chargers is unfair.”
There is also pressure on the Government to consider cutting VAT on electric car sales or exempt electric cars from a new “luxury car supplement”.
The supplement promises to impose a higher rate of road tax to cars that cost more than £40,000.
This is expected to impact about two-thirds of electric cars.
When you then factor in other increased costs, primarily tires and insurance, it becomes clear that this technology is still a long way from being a viable mass-market replacement for the internal combustion engine.Comment
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Anytime something comes along that "lowers taxes," watch out -- because the government can't possibly run on less money. It always needs more. So if they start losing out on gas taxes due to EVs, they will have to make it up somewhere, if not in electricity taxes, then somewhere else. People always think this politician or that one is going to save them money but that hardly ever happens.Comment
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Many States assess other fees to EV's to make up for road tax losses. They are generally yearly fees in addition to the normal yearly license plate fees. Call it a road tax, EV tax, or what ever. Since almost all States charge road tax in as part of gasoline sales, they have deemed other fair ways to get the same tax out of EV's. This list is what States are charging EV's these days. I do not know if extra fees are also added on at fast charge stations or not. Perhaps someone here does know.Originally posted by Mike Blakesley View Post- Alabama: $200
- Arkansas: $200
- California: $108
- Colorado: $51.88
- Georgia: $213.70
- Hawaii: $50
- Idaho: $140
- Illinois: $100
- Indiana: $150
- Iowa: $130
- Kansas: Up to $70
- Kentucky: $120
- Louisiana: $100
- Michigan: $145
- Minnesota: $75
- Mississippi: $150
- Missouri: $105
- Nebraska: $75
- North Carolina: $140.25
- North Dakota: $120
- Ohio: $200
- Oklahoma: $110
- Oregon: Up to $91
- South Carolina: $60
- South Dakota: $50
- Tennessee: $100
- Texas: $200
- Utah: $130.25
- Virginia: $120
- Washington: $150
- West Virginia: $200
- Wisconsin: $100
- Wyoming: $200
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If that $108 is supposed to be the registration fee for the average EV in California, then it's dirt cheap. I just paid $310 to renew the registration on my 2018 Honda.
In response to Mike's point, the market share that EVs have has not yet gotten large enough to force the issue, but if and when it does, it's going to be a "third rail" for the politicians: namely, replacing the gas tax with pay-per-mile. Polling and market research has consistently shown that motorists oppose pay-per-mile so strongly that it would be likely to motivate people who have never voted in their lives to do so, even if the proposal included completely abolishing the gas tax.
The opposition is for two reasons: (a) the belief that we'll end up paying more overall, and (b) the need to install tracking technology in our cars to enforce pay-per-mile. So even governments that rule over one-party states with long-term supermajorities (e.g. in California) have been reluctant to go there. So far, at any rate, the proportion of EVs on the road is small enough that the loss of gas tax revenue isn't a big enough figure to cause a serious problem. But if their stated goal of getting ICE-powered vehicles off the roads and into the history books comes anywhere close to becoming a reality, it will be. Last year (per Google), California raised $6.5 billion in gas taxes out of a $220.5 billion total tax take: about 3%. That might not sound like much, but losing it would add significantly to an already growing deficit.
My guess is that if and when the time comes, they'll try to make up the shortfall by taxing something unrelated or only partially related, and less politically sensitive (maybe charging out-of-state vehicles a daily fee to drive in the state, and/or expanding the use tolls on SR freeways?). But they won't be able to kick that can down the road forever.Comment
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That is in.addition to the usual registration fees. They are making up for the shortfall in gas tax that EV's cause .Originally posted by Leo Enticknap View Post
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