First Time Eating Out Since The Virus Appeared... Literally!

[Bobby Henderson]

Follow up on the local friend of mine, one of the most active guys in our AMBUCS civic club chapter: well, it looks like he is not getting out of his positive test for SARS-CoV-2 unscathed. He developed COVID-19 symptoms on Friday. He said it has completely sapped all his energy; just walking from the bedroom to the kitchen is an exhausting ordeal. I'm praying the illness doesn't get bad enough to land him in the hospital or worse.

This guy took all the precautions (wearing masks, gloves, frequently cleaning and sterilizing tools and high touch surfaces, etc) and still wound up getting infected. This shit is for real and it is very contagious. I just have a bad feeling a bunch of the COVID-deniers out there are just going to end up having to find out about it the hard way.

However, this woman's grandstanding, contempt of the court and tearing up documents in front of the judge pretty much invalidates her claim of Civil Disobedience. If she had said something to the effect, "I understand about the dangers of the virus pandemic but I believe that the government has gone too far and I believe that it my moral duty to protest by means of Civil Disobedience," I would support her. When I consider her actions, so far, I have to say, "Nope. Sorry."

And that was one of the things missing from the headlines. I had to read up on the incident more carefully. When I saw she had repeatedly violated the restrictions I thought, "uh oh." But really the thing that did it was her grand-standing in court. When I read she had torn up the cease and desist notice in front of the judge's face I instantly thought, "now THAT is why she landed in jail." I mean, that was just a flat out "FUCK YOU" directed at the judge. There is not a court anywhere on this continent where anyone can get away with that behavior toward a judge, no matter what their cause might be. But, given the case was such a political football the salon owner wound up getting out of jail in a very short time anyway.

[Randy Stankey]

I understand the gravity of this virus pandemic but I also understand that this isn't as bad as it could be.

I think that this virus rates about five out of ten.
This isn't an outbreak of the Ebola Virus or the Marburg Virus. If that happened, we'd probably be in "Zombie Apocalypse" mode.

So, YES, this thing needs to be taken seriously but, also, we shouldn't go too far.

Social distancing? Yes!

However, when I was a kid, if somebody was sick, we would say, "If I get sick because of you, I'm going to kick your ass!"
Would we actually kick somebody's ass? Probably not.
Would we even know who we got sick from? Not likely.
The point is that people were supposed to take their responsibility of not spreading sickness seriously and that other people expected each other to take their own responsibility seriously.

We didn't depend on government to take responsibility where individual responsibility was more appropriate.

At the place where I work, we are still in operation because the company has a certain percentage of business in defense contracts. Thus, my job falls into the "critical" category.

We are taking measures like wearing masks, full time, and getting our temperatures checked and having to sit at least two workstations apart. We also decontaminate our work areas with alcohol at the end of every shift. However, there is a lot of anxiety in the workplace because of one person who works in the front office getting all upset over the virus. This one person is creating a lot of hassle because they can't control their own anxiety and is passing it on to the rest of the business via panicked e-mails about tangential things. Day to day work life is like walking on eggshells because of one, single person who can't cope.

So... I was talking to a supervisor who was getting skittish about social distancing because of this other person's rantings.
I held my hand out in front of me and asked the supervisor to hold out his hand. He looked confused.
I had to explain that since we are both about six feet tall, our arm spans would also be approximately six feet across. If we could each hold out our arms and not touch hands, plus a little bit more distance for good measure, we must be at least six feet apart.

Since we were both wearing masks, since we had both had our temperatures checked before reporting to our work areas, PLUS, since we were at least six feet apart, any reasonable person could infer that we were taking all reasonable measures to prevent transmission of the virus, if it was, indeed present in the facility. Which, by the way, there has not been one single case of the virus in the facility, among over 200 employees since the outbreak started.

We were each taking responsibility to protect ourselves and others around us from the virus.

There is no reason for some governmental authority to step in and make unilateral decrees in a case like this.

I think it is reasonable for the government to recommend things.
I think it is reasonable for the government to say that non-essential businesses should close or, at least, limit their operating hours if they can prove that they have taken reasonable measures to prevent the spread of sickness.

I also think it is reasonable for business owners to say, "We have done all that we can do but we won't accept unreasonable restrictions."

If that was what the woman from the hair salon was trying to say, I'd be standing right behind her.

[Scott Jentsch]

What I see as different about this particular situation is that we don't know when we're infectious. That means that we can't keep from infecting others by noticing that we're sick and staying home when that happens, because the damage has already been done.

By all means, we should be staying home if we're experiencing symptoms, but we should always have been doing that, but largely don't, because society rewards those who "muscle through it" and work through the sickness.

I have friends that go out, completely oblivious to any of the guidelines for protections (masks, personal contact with people outside of our households, etc.), because "they feel fine, so they aren't sick."

By all accounts, that logic does not apply in this situation. And it seems like people just don't get that, which is partly due to the stupidity, arrogance, and ignorance of the general public, but also it indicates that we have a serious marketing and communications failure at all levels of government when it comes to messaging about this pandemic. It's not fair to call someone stupid/ignorant when they are told two contradicting statements in the course of one press conference.

[Bobby Henderson]

I think that this virus rates about five out of ten.
This isn't an outbreak of the Ebola Virus or the Marburg Virus. If that happened, we'd probably be in "Zombie Apocalypse" mode.

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 to strains of Ebola, or even a far more similar bug like MERS, is a bit of an apples-oranges comparison. There are both better and worse aspects to SARS-CoV-2 compared to something like Ebola.

SARS-CoV-2 doesn't have remotely near the fatality rate of even the mildest strains of Ebola. But SARS-CoV-2 has proven it can infect enormously far greater numbers of people. The virus is incredibly contagious, much moreso than seasonal flu. In the best case scenarios where the health care system is able to effectively treat anyone in need of hospitalization the fatality rate of SARS-CoV-2 is anywhere from .1% to .5%. But when the health care system is overwhelmed with patients it's easy for the case fatality rate to shoot up to 10% or even more. And then additional deaths pile up from others not able to receive life-saving treatment for other non-COVID health incidents. Ebola can kill 50% to 90% of those infected, depending on the strain. But the ability for SARS-CoV-2 to scale out and infect far more people can allow that virus the potential to kill far more people than Ebola or any other recent global pandemic.

The Ebola virus is pretty contagious, but people stricken with Ebola are usually only infectious after symptoms have developed. By that time anyone infected with Ebola is likely to be incapacitated. The same was true for MERS, which has a case fatality rate over 30%.

The truly sinister thing about SARS-CoV-2 is many people have no clue they're infected. They don't have any obvious symptoms, but they're still contagious. Some people get infected and get over it without ever realizing they were infected. But they can unwittingly pass along the virus to other people and it's possible for those other people to have far worse outcomes.

If not getting tested earlier when he felt fine, the friend of mine now suffering from COVID-19 might have been seeing all sorts of medical patients all this last week before finally developing COVID-19 symptoms.

[Randy Stankey]

This is a hard problem because, even though I understand the seriousness of the pandemic, I have a more naturalistic view.

No matter how well we take measures... and we should... people are going to get sick and there is nothing we can do to stop it. People should take responsibility for their own health, do what they can to prevent spreading the disease to others but not depend on some other authority because, no matter what "they" (governments) do, sickness or death is a virtual fait accompli.

I don't know what that hairdresser in Texas was doing to keep people safe or whether she was just being a jerk. I suspect the latter. But, assuming that she was taking all reasonable measures, I don't think that it is fair for the government to step in. Yes, some people will get sick even though measures were taken. Bobby's friend proves it. He took all preventative measures but still came down sick. He knew the risks but, in spite of using his best judgement, still got sick. Like I said, it just happens.

If people don't want to take risk, they should stay home. If people don't want to use precaution, they shouldn't go out. If others get sick because of them, they should get their proverbial asses kicked. However, if people understand the risk and are willing to take precaution they should be allowed to go almost anywhere they want. (I agree that shutting down sporting events, concerts and other large gatherings makes sense.)

I think that people depend on the government too much to "save" them from things that are best handled with common sense. Yes, I know that "common sense" isn't always very common. That's why I agree that governments should make some rules but they should also be careful about going to far and let people manage their own problems.

The problem is that it's hard to know where to draw the line. The problem is made more difficult by people like the office manager that I mentioned who got all up in the air about things because they couldn't cope with their own anxiety, causing other people to have to walk on eggshells all the time.

I guess, to summarize, I am saying: Let's stop walking on eggshells. Let's use common sense. Let's take responsibility for ourselves and stop depending on government to take responsibility for us. Let's face the fact, this is a pandemic, nobody can stop it and it just "is what it is."

[Bobby Henderson]

The government can do some things, but it can't do everything. I'm all for people taking their own personal responsibility to stay safe. But on the flip side there is a lot of people who flagrantly refuse to heed any of the warnings. It's why we have things like traffic signals on the roads.

Negligent disregard is especially true in this region where a significant number of people still think this pandemic is just some conspiracy. To this select group of people the act of wearing a face covering is an admission of being a liberal communist sympathizer. At my workplace we are not letting any customers inside our offices; most business is handled over the phone or via email. Anyone picking up something small, such as a banner or a yard sign, will get it placed out front for them to pick up in the parking lot. We're not changing our policy any time soon. Most customers have no problem with this policy; many show up wearing face masks. A few customers have gotten pissy about it, as if their rights are being violated. We're a small business and don't have a lot of redundancy in our crew. So it's going to be a big problem if a couple or more of our staff gets infected by some consumer who insists on walking inside our shop. We can't allow some customer's "freedoms" to jeopardize that. It's already a big enough challenge just getting our own employees to take precautions.

Locally we've been doing pretty well so far. But I joke one reason for that is very few people want to visit Lawton. Statewide the daily number of recoveries has lately been outpacing the numbers of new cases. As of Monday we had 4613 confirmed cases, but with 3241 recovered and 274 deaths, which leaves 1098 active confirmed cases. We've had 124 confirmed cases in Comanche County, just 2 deaths and 73 recoveries. We're definitely going in the right direction. However no one should be letting down their guard and acting as if the crisis is over. The SARS-CoV-2 virus is just as contagious as it was 2 months ago and there is a tremendous amount of our population it can still infect.

Edit: locally, Comanche County added 27 new confirmed cases, going from 124 to 151 as of Tuesday afternoon May 12. That's the biggest one-day jump in confirmed new cases we've seen locally so far.

[Randy Stankey]

... But on the flip side there is a lot of people who flagrantly refuse to heed any of the warnings...

... Negligent disregard is especially true in this region where a significant number of people still think this pandemic is just some conspiracy...

... To this select group of people the act of wearing a face covering is an admission of being a liberal communist sympathizer...

Yeah, it was a conspiracy... in China. If the Chinese government hadn't conspired to cover up the problem and silence the people who tried to put out a warning, we wouldn't be in this mess. That conspiracy is over, now, and we've got to deal with the problem because of OTHER PEOPLE who refused to listen.

I think, if we put it that way, some of those stubborn people might listen but, then, we risk starting an international problem when they start saying things about China and regular Chinese people instead of the few people in the government who are responsible. Some people are only capable of shallow thinking.

A funny thing I was thinking about... How to keep social distance and turn it into a form of protest.

Earlier, I talked about holding out one's arms to gauge distance between people.
Most people's height is between 5-1/2 and 6 feet tall. Most people's arm spans are approximately the same as their height.
If a person holds one arm, out straight, that measures about 3 feet of space in front of them.
If two people hold out their arms and can't touch fingers, that's close to 6 feet. Add a bit more for good measure.

So, picture this... Two people standing, face to face, holding their arms straight out in front... Like Nazis.

People who wanted to protest could "maintain social distance" by making a Nazi salute.

Okay... yeah... that's a joke. I'm not sure if I really want to see this pandemic fall prey to Godwin's Law, just yet.

[Leo Enticknap]

The government can do some things, but it can't do everything. I'm all for people taking their own personal responsibility to stay safe. But on the flip side there is a lot of people who flagrantly refuse to heed any of the warnings. It's why we have things like traffic signals on the roads.

The road accident analogy is a good one, and can be extended further. Between 30,000 and 35,000 Americans die in road accidents in a typical year. If we didn't do a lot of stuff to mitigate the risk, that figure would be a lot higher. We have minimum technical/safety standards for cars, DUI is illegal, intersections that become accident blackspots are redesigned, etc. etc. But there comes a point where we've done as much macro level mitigation as we can before the risk/reward equation no longer makes sense. From there on, it comes down to personal responsibility and accepting that there is a risk attached to the freedom and economic benefits that owning and using an automobile provides. If that residual risk is unacceptable to you, the solution is to reorganize your life so that you don't have to drive a car.

The same applies to the coronavirus. Leaving an empty seat between parties in the movie theater is a mitigation measure that most of us (I guess) would support. Destroying the entire economy is not.

[Bobby Henderson]

Yeah, it was a conspiracy... in China. If the Chinese government hadn't conspired to cover up the problem and silence the people who tried to put out a warning, we wouldn't be in this mess. That conspiracy is over, now, and we've got to deal with the problem because of OTHER PEOPLE who refused to listen.

I think, if we put it that way, some of those stubborn people might listen but, then, we risk starting an international problem when they start saying things about China and regular Chinese people instead of the few people in the government who are responsible. Some people are only capable of shallow thinking.

The Chinese government most definitely has its own cross to bear with allowing this pandemic to spread out of control. I'm sure Doctor Li Wenliang is far from the only one the Chinese government screwed. And then here in the United States our government has been about as effective as the Keystone Cops. Compound the problem with a hoard of tin foil hat wearing types among our general public.

In the end, we have a mix of people with different outlooks on safety. Some are trying to take precautions and be considerate of others. Then there's the assholes who don't give a damn about anybody but themselves. Normally I'd say let the fools learn the hard way. But if or when they get infected they'll be very likely to infect others, especially with the angry, flagrant disregard of safety protocols.

The road accident analogy is a good one, and can be extended further. Between 30,000 and 35,000 Americans die in road accidents in a typical year. If we didn't do a lot of stuff to mitigate the risk, that figure would be a lot higher. We have minimum technical/safety standards for cars, DUI is illegal, intersections that become accident blackspots are redesigned, etc. etc. But there comes a point where we've done as much macro level mitigation as we can before the risk/reward equation no longer makes sense. From there on, it comes down to personal responsibility and accepting that there is a risk attached to the freedom and economic benefits that owning and using an automobile provides. If that residual risk is unacceptable to you, the solution is to reorganize your life so that you don't have to drive a car.

Anyone who chooses to travel in an automobile assumes a certain level of risk. However, it's not difficult at all to improve one's own odds against dying in a fatal car accident. Driving responsibly, courteously and defensively all contribute to that. Most fatal car accidents have factors where one or more drivers was doing something negligent. I mentioned traffic signals being a necessity because too many people refuse to wait for their turn to cross an intersection. The same kind of selfish behavior works its way into this pandemic situation. Some people are totally fixated on their own rights and freedoms but have no hesitation jeopardizing the health and constitutional rights of other people.

We certainly can't afford to keep the country in shut-down, quarantine mode. Business has to get operational again somehow. Everyone in the general public needs to recognize the fact this virus is real and take some damned precautions. The medical experts say the SARS-CoV-2 has to potential to spread to more than 70% of our population. That kind of disease spread will inflict its own catastrophic economic damage.

Here at our sign company we're trying to figure out just what the hell we're going to do if some of our people get infected. My boss (the company owner) had heart surgery several months ago. He sure as hell doesn't need to be getting infected with this crap. Our neon guy is near retirement age and has smoked nearly all his adult life. Most of our other employees have better survival odds. Nevertheless, our operations are going to be dead in the water, no money coming in, if one of us gets infected and spreads it to several other colleagues.

I'm not saying we need to shut everything down again. But I'm fairly alarmed a bunch of people (at least around here) aren't taking the situation seriously.

[Frank Cox]

our operations are going to be dead in the water, no money coming in,

Welcome to the club, as almost everyone on this forum is already in that situation today.

I've said before that the worst part of this thing is that there's no end date. Closed until... when? Another month? Two months? Six? Sometime next year?

I was out to pick up the mail earlier today and I see that yet another small business (jewellery shop) has permanently closed on Main Street here -- there's a "for rent" sign in their window today that wasn't there before -- last week it just said temporarily closed.

Those who pay rent for their storefront can't pay rent indefinitely with no revenue coming in, and the landlord can't continue to to maintain and heat the building and pay the taxes and insurance without rent coming in either. And if you own your storefront, you still have to pay taxea and insurance and utilities and maintenance.

Even if there was a magic spell that caused this whole virus thing to disappear this afternoon and everyone could re-open and go back to normal tomorrow -- how many businesses have already passed the point where they could afford to re-open?

[Bobby Henderson]

I sympathize with the "non-essential" businesses who had to completely shut down or greatly limit what services or goods they could sell.

The state government didn't tell us to shut down; we were deemed an essential business because of some of the goods and services we provide. We did have greatly reduced hours for the past several weeks and have only gone back to full Monday-Friday schedules this past week. But if we experience a SARS-CoV-2 outbreak in our shop we will be forced to shut down for no telling how long. A bad enough outbreak, one that kills or permanently disables some key people, will put us out of business without any government intervention.

Personally I think my own survival chances against SARS-CoV-2 are reasonably good. But I'm in my early 50's now and there's plenty of examples of physically fit people landing in the hospital with COVID-19. We don't have the best health insurance at my workplace. The past couple years the premiums have gone way the hell up and the quality of coverage has gone way the hell down. My deductible is $6000. There's all kinds of gaps in coverage, leaving plenty of room for all kinds of giant sized surprise bills. If I got infected and hospitalized it would wipe out the nest egg I've saved and put me deep in debt. That's the scenario if there's no lasting complications, such as pulmonary fibrosis. I worry more about some of my co-workers, people who may not have any savings at all.

Business has been busy for us the first half of the year, but I fear activity could crater, even with Oklahoma opening up everything. The bars are going to be allowed to open Friday. Consumer confidence is really going to be the key thing in this. Some people are getting out and about as if there is no pandemic. But plenty of other customers are pretty scared and staying home. Our local YMCA re-opened last week with a lot of social distancing changes and other screening policies. Traffic was very very light.

[Leo Enticknap]

But if we experience a SARS-CoV-2 outbreak in our shop we will be forced to shut down for no telling how long.

From what you write, I'm guessing that you're in a slightly unusual situation in that your business depends on people who have unusual skills and experience that could not easily be replaced, especially in a small town. No offense meant to teachers, plumbers, or bus drivers, but if you needed to hire one in a hurry, you'd be able to find one a lot more easily than someone who knows how to make illuminated neon signs. Obviously, that's a risk factor that has to be factored in to business planning, and it's not just the coronavirus that could trigger the risk.

I was once called out of the blue by the owner of a small indie theater in a resort town in the south-west of England. The same projectionist had been there for something like 40 years. The place only opened five nights a week, and he had literally worked every show for decades. He had installed and maintained everything in the booth, so much so that the owner of the theater had rarely even set foot in it.

One day, he was a arrested for - I'm not joking - bestiality. In the mornings he helped out on the farm that his house was next door to, and was caught molesting a horse (the police also found some very gnarly "literature" in his home - he went down for seven years, eventually). So that afternoon, the owner called every theater within a 50-mile radius in a panic, including the one I had a part-time job at while I was a student. It took me a long time to figure out what was what in that booth (I'd never touched that model of projector before, or carbon arcs), and wasn't able to in time for the first show. But I got the later one up, though. However, they lost several shows (and complete days) over the following few weeks, while the owner tried to replace Mr. Horse Shagger with a staffing arrangement that didn't close his business down if one employee went offline. The same thing applies - if he'd needed a plumber or any other professional of which even small towns will have several living in them, he wouldn't have been disrupted to the extent that he was. But when your business relies on people who have unusual skills or qualifications, that's a risk factor.

[Bobby Henderson]

That's a hell of a story about landing a projectionist job! It hasn't turned up in the news very often, but from time to time some clown here in Oklahoma will land in jail for having a little too much barn yard fun. I wonder if there has been any zootonic transmission of deadly pathogens from people doing that crap. One story that's still likely a myth is HIV leaping from apes to people via someone loving those primates a little too much.

Industry-wide the neon craft/art form is in pretty serious decline and in danger of disappearing from the sign industry completely. Demand for neon has cratered due to high output LEDs replacing neon in many kinds of signs, like channel letters, border lighting on buildings and all sorts of other environmental lighting purposes. No one specifies neon in a sign design unless the glass will be visible, like in open face channel letters. There is still no credible LED-based substitute for that. Companies that make neon glass tubing and other related components produce those supplies in far smaller quantities now. That has caused materials prices to go way up. Sign codes are another factor hurting neon; a lot of communities (particularly upper scale suburbs) are drafting very restrictive sign ordinances. Finally, the skilled talent base of neon tube benders is rapidly aging and dying off. Very few younger adults are learning the craft.

Even for more common jobs in sign shops getting qualified people isn't very easy. Oddly enough, my job doing graphics work is one of the few we have that doesn't require some kind of certification (enough though it probably should, considering all the unprofessional crap being produced these days). People who drive crane trucks need their CDL as well as crane certifications. Most of our guys have a minimum of a journeyman electricians license. A couple or more have master electricians licenses. If someone leaves we not only have to find someone qualified, but that candidate has to pass a drug & alcohol screening. Pot may be medically legal but none of our guys can use the stuff.

[Randy Stankey]

...[T]he skilled talent base of neon tube benders is rapidly aging and dying off. Very few younger adults are learning the craft.

That's something I've always been interested in, since forever. I've never followed up on it because I've never known any place to pick up the trade. It's a lot like becoming a projectionist. You have to have experience to get a job but you have to have a job to get experience.

I'd like to know more, just for curiosity's sake.
How do you get started? Where do you get training? What's the cost of learning the trade? ($$ cost or opportunity cost?)
Can one make a living doing this the entry or intermediate levels? Or do you have to be a lifetime master to earn living wages/salary?

I don't want to run away and join the circus, so to speak. But, like I said, it's always been something I've wondered about from afar. Same as becoming a projectionist. I had always been interested and wondered about it from afar since I was a kid. If I hadn't started working in theaters, I could imagine myself making neon signs.

I guess there's too much water under the bridge, by now. Eh?

[Bobby Henderson]

The best way to learn how to be a tube bender is by apprenticing with someone with a lot of experience. That's how our guy learned it around 20 years ago. Our company's original neon guy (my boss' dad, one of the brothers who founded the company) was retiring and was in declining health. An old timer still doing doing neon work in Elk City, OK offered to help. So our new guy drove back and forth between Lawton and Elk City for around a year, learning and practicing to get good enough to bend and electrify neon on his own. It took around another year of practice to get reasonably good at it. Our guy plays guitar and already had a musician's touch, so that helped. I don't know what we paid the old timer to train our guy.

Depending on the market, a neon tube bender can earn some decent money. Big cities that have lively downtown districts and neon-friendly sign codes can give tube benders a lot of work. There is some interest in neon within the art world as well. There are guys who do very creative work and even have high-brow gallery shows. Neon can give off a very retro vibe with the right kinds of design. That fits in very well in zones like The District next to downtown Nashville.

Most of the neon work we do these days is repair jobs on existing signs. I try to push neon whenever I can since nothing else really duplicates that visual look. But too many locals balk at the cost, the worries about power consumption and worries about maintenance.

It probably goes without saying anyone wanting to make neon should probably have very good knowledge and respect for electricity. When neon tubes are "processed" the neon or argon gas pumped inside the glass will be bombarded with high current to cook out any impurities in the gas. The electricity also heats up the electrodes very hot and burns out any contaminates in the glass. A well processed tube can last many years as long as it's not damaged by any impacts or corroded by weather.

One more thing. If you want to be a tube bender you have to not mind burning your fingers.