Outdoor sound system (not for movies)

[John Eickhof]

as most are aware, loudspeakers have improved over the years! there are now high efficiency wide range 70 speakers ie atlas and other brands of dependable products, typical 2 way horns for indoor or outdoor use with efficiency of 102dg@1w@1m, and up to 128db @ 1m at full power rating...with dispersion of 65 deg x 65 deg up to 40 deg x 60 deg coverage and freq range of 75hz to 5khz! yet compact and weatherproof! ie: Atlas 12" 2-Way Stadium Horn Loudspeaker System 65° x 65° | AtlasIED so better fidelity is achievable about 1.5k each but will last a long time with good fidelity, pa horns are usually effective from 500hz to 3khx mainly in the voice range looking at your situation it would require 4 speakers in line in front tapped at 30w with two more along each side tapped at 30 wand an amplifier of 400 watts at 70.7v through an ot-300 line transformer the speakers are pricey at $600 up to $6k....anyway it is always recommended pa horns be protected from lf and most pre-amps and mixers have built in lf cutoff however these 2 and 3 way horns have built in crossovers and better drivers. just my 2 cents worth...

[Barry Floyd]

I was a mobile DJ in Nashville for 18 years before we started the drive-in. I had a Peavey CS800 amp powering a pair of Peavey SP2 speakers on stands for mids and highs, and a Crown CE1000 driving two Cerwin Vega L36P subs. Some folks don't care for Peavey, but those amps never let me down once in 18 years. I had 3 identical systems that went out each weekend night of the year.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

Barry, your experience with Peavey seems to be the exception to the rule. Back when I was repairing amplifiers at my bench, I saw hundreds of Crowns and a hundred or so Peaveys cycle through, several of other brands and only a handful of QSC. That was over the span of about two decades. I stand by what I said about those first two brands.

An update on the Behringer ZMX 8210 mixer, there is another vendor on Reverb with more than one of them available, in fact it is the vendor I bought my last two from: https://reverb.com/item/38044347-beh...zone-mixer?bk=

These still show on Behringer's website, and are available from other vendors as well: https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0CCY

So once again, to sum up: IMHO Mike's speakers are (and have been) adequate to the task, all he really needs is new amplifiers. For the weight savings, and ready availability used at good prices, a pair of QSC or other quality amps will get him running at minimal cost.

[Mike Blakesley]

Update: I contacted a company in Billings (100 miles from here) to inquire about renting equipment for our application. I filled out their online "contact us" form and got no response, so I sent an email and got no response. So screw them -- either they aren't interested in out-of-town business (even though I checked "No" when they asked if we would need equipment delivered) or they just aren't interested period.

I'm looking pretty strongly at a couple of QSC RMX1450A amps. They match up well with the speakers we have, and would work well with any future speaker upgrades.

Reverb also has an excellent mixer for your application, Beheringer ZMX 8210/8210v2 that has several mic inputs, two stereo line ins, and an additional mono AUX output.

One question about this unit - how do you connect it to the amplifiers? The Crown unit we have been using has 1/4" input jacks on it and the Pioneer one has typical "home gear" inputs with RCA plugs. The QSC amps I'm looking at have wired inputs, 1/4" jacks, and 3-pin round connectors. But how do you get signal out of the mixer? The fact that it's nigh impossible to find a "close up" clear view of the back panel isn't helping but since Tony has personal experience with this unit I'm sure he can answer this.

[Marcel Birgelen]

One question about this unit - how do you connect it to the amplifiers? The Crown unit we have been using has 1/4" input jacks on it and the Pioneer one has typical "home gear" inputs with RCA plugs. The QSC amps I'm looking at have wired inputs, 1/4" jacks, and 3-pin round connectors. But how do you get signal out of the mixer? The fact that it's nigh impossible to find a "close up" clear view of the back panel isn't helping but since Tony has personal experience with this unit I'm sure he can answer this.

The 3-pin round connectors are XLR connectors, which are balanced connectors and are the most-often used analog interconnects in pro-audio. If your PA mixer/source doesn't have a balanced output, you can use the unbalanced 1/4" input jacks, which are also present on the amp.

If you don't have XLR or balanced outputs on your PA mixer/source and are suffering from ground loops (an irritating 50/60 Hz hum), you should consider an isolation transformer. The one I linked also allows you to go from balanced to unbalanced and vice-versa in a safe and ground-loop-free manner, without rolling your own cables and it actually works... we have a bunch of these and they often come in handy when we need to connect your garden variety ghetto sound systems to something bigger. :P

Below a more detailed back-view of the device:
QSC_RMX_1450a_rear.jpg

[Mike Blakesley]

Getting into the amps is no problem, what I was asking is how to get the signal out of the mixer that Tony indicated - the Behringer ZMX8210 V2.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Sorry, I misread that.

Well, the Beheringer ZMX 8210 comes with balanced Phoenix / Euroblock terminals for both the outputs and most of the inputs. To connect this thing to the amp, you need a Phoenix/Euroblock to XLR cable. You can either roll them yourselves or buy them ready-made with the terminals already screwed on them, if you're not sure to build them yourselves.

Keep in mind that most of the inputs on this device are balanced and also use Phoenix / Euroblock terminals.
The mixer does support unbalanced connections to the balanced inputs, but you need to jumper the + and "shield" connector on the terminal. The "hot" wire goes into the "-". Like indicated, I usually prefer to connect unbalanced to balanced equipment via an isolation transformer, but using this for 6 separate inputs isn't really practical. As long as everything uses the same power source and is grounded the same way, ground loops should be able to be kept at a minimum.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

Getting into the amps is no problem, what I was asking is how to get the signal out of the mixer that Tony indicated - the Behringer ZMX8210 V2.

Mike, You can wire up from the mixer to xlr as follows, using some Belden 8451 or equivalent cable:

From the euro connectors on the mixer, you go

+ to pin 2 XLR,
- to Pin 3 XLR
shield to Pin 1 XLR

If the RMX amps have the direct wire (edit: Thanks Marcel for the pic to confirm they do) then it's even easier, + to +. - to - and BOTH shields to the common ground in the middle.

Best of all, if for any reason you want to do stage monitors later, you can use the Aux Out to provide that feed (or as I have done in some installs, feed a low power FM transmitter.)

Also note that other than the two stereo inputs, all of the inputs on the mixer use the Euro connections. The two stereo inputs (7 and 8) are RCA unbalanced. You can wire a remote to toggle between those two.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I have been busy at the mx track the last three days...two days of watering, then the practice session on Saturday. I was a zombie all day yesterday.

Second edit: Too bad Marcel's pic doesn't show it very well, but one thing that has amused me for years about QSC is that the output ratings on the label show up as 300w/ch/imp
So I guess they put out 300 chimps per channel.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

Sorry, I misread that.

Well, the Beheringer ZMX 8210 comes with balanced Phoenix / Euroblock terminals for both the outputs and most of the inputs. To connect this thing to the amp, you need a Phoenix/Euroblock to XLR cable. You can either roll them yourselves or buy them ready-made with the terminals already screwed on them, if you're not sure to build them yourselves.

Keep in mind that most of the inputs on this device are balanced and also use Phoenix / Euroblock terminals.
The mixer does support unbalanced connections to the balanced inputs, but you need to jumper the + and "shield" connector on the terminal. The "hot" wire goes into the "-". Like indicated, I usually prefer to connect unbalanced to balanced equipment via an isolation transformer, but using this for 6 separate inputs isn't really practical. As long as everything uses the same power source and is grounded the same way, ground loops should be able to be kept at a minimum.

That is incorrect, please see attached screenshot:Screenshot 2023-07-31 at 10-37-49 9076-BehringerULTRAZONEZMX8210Manual.pdf.png

The way they worded it is a bit confusing at first glance though. I know I screenshot the outputs, but the inputs are connected in the same manner for unbalanced use.

Link to manual: https://www.fullcompass.com/common/f...8210Manual.pdf

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

Update: I contacted a company in Billings (100 miles from here) to inquire about renting equipment for our application. I filled out their online "contact us" form and got no response, so I sent an email and got no response. So screw them -- either they aren't interested in out-of-town business (even though I checked "No" when they asked if we would need equipment delivered) or they just aren't interested period.

I'm looking pretty strongly at a couple of QSC RMX1450A amps. They match up well with the speakers we have, and would work well with any future speaker upgrades.



One question about this unit - how do you connect it to the amplifiers? The Crown unit we have been using has 1/4" input jacks on it and the Pioneer one has typical "home gear" inputs with RCA plugs. The QSC amps I'm looking at have wired inputs, 1/4" jacks, and 3-pin round connectors. But how do you get signal out of the mixer? The fact that it's nigh impossible to find a "close up" clear view of the back panel isn't helping but since Tony has personal experience with this unit I'm sure he can answer this.

Go for those amps. They are solid (I have one that I got for $50 locally, I only needed to clean the input pots.) but they are heavy as they are conventional power supply designs. But they are super reliable and will tolerate unclean power from a generator better than CX/DCA amps would.

To clarify that, the DCA/CX (with "Powerlight" power supplies) don't like brownouts. There is a component that will burn out in an extended low voltage condition, but I was told by a QSC tech that is is an easy fix and doesn't really harm the amplifier. (And the amp won't harm the speakers when it happens.) That was some time ago, and I don't know if they addressed that in later production runs. Still that is a minor issue and not, for my applications, a show-stopper.

[Frank Cox]

So I guess they put out 300 chimps per channel.

Don't monkey around with the sound system!

(We've got 300 of 'em doing it already.)

[Marcel Birgelen]

That is incorrect, please see attached screenshot

That's correct, I swapped the plus and the minus. Never happened before.

I used my defective memory instead of RTFM. So, what we learn from this? Always read the f**ing Manual first...

Edit: Here is a "maximum zoom" from the sticker on the backside on that image that list the CHIMPs

zoom.png

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

That's correct, I swapped the plus and the minus. Never happened before.

I used my defective memory instead of RTFM. So, what we learn from this? Always read the f**ing Manual first...

Edit: Here is a "maximum zoom" from the sticker on the backside on that image that list the CHIMPs

zoom.png

Been there, done that. Made up an entire 10 channel XLR drum kit snake with pins 2 and 3 swapped, drove the house engineer crazy until he tried the phase invert buttons on his board.

The chimps aren't as bad as my all time favorite "Who TF thought of this name" item:

photo_cntblock agl.jpg


I am positive whoever did that knew exactly what they were doing.

[Mike Blakesley]

Go for those amps. They are solid (I have one that I got for $50 locally, I only needed to clean the input pots.) but they are heavy as they are conventional power supply designs. But they are super reliable and will tolerate unclean power from a generator better than CX/DCA amps would.

As it happens, we have a good power supply with multiple outlets right next to our field -- you can see it next to the street, right above the "blue dot" in the picture.

How the hell do you know what you're buying when looking at used amps? Some of those in the ebay pictures look like they've been run over by a truck or left out in the rain.

Back on Page 1, Scott Norwood asked:

What is the efficiency rating for your speakers and what sort of SPL do you need?

Here is a picture of the spec sheet. I'm not sure what to say for SPL, just "comfortably loud" but not "concert loud." Loud enough to be heard over a bunch of fireworks that are going off 200' away.

Kind of funny how there's a typo on the spec sheet. "Capret" instead of carpet.

pd18b-specs.jpg

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

As it happens, we have a good power supply with multiple outlets right next to our field -- you can see it next to the street, right above the "blue dot" in the picture.

How the hell do you know what you're buying when looking at used amps? Some of those in the ebay pictures look like they've been run over by a truck or left out in the rain.

In general, when buying amps online, I do look at overall condition (so those things you referenced are a red flag, so unless those amps are $50 or less, hard pass. If I can get them that cheap, I clean, repaint and bench test. Since you need good amps without that headache, move on.) Seller reputation, and amp brand. Also if they show the amp powered up in any pics, with only standby/power lights on. If the Clip/Protect/Thermal lights are on, no deal. (Again, unless I am getting it cheap enough to repair.) If they show the back of the amp, no missing terminal screws, no rust or broken parts. Power cord in decent condition.

Since QSCs are very rugged, they may look really bad but still be fully functional. That said, anything that I take out in public needs to look good too, so I don't look like a hack.

Keep looking, and be sure to check Reverb. Most of that is installed equipment that got upgraded, so it will be relatively clean, most likely fully functional, and reliable. Reverb's search engine leaves a bit to be desired, so search by brands and don't be afraid to try multiple categories.

Again, in QSC you can look at CX, PLX, PLX2, MX, MXa, PL, Powerlight 2, DCA, RMX, RMXa, and of course Series One.

Stay away from Crown and Peavey.

Some obscure brands that might also be good (I have limited or no experience with some of these): Behringer makes/made a few models; NAD; AB Systems (I used a lot of these at the live sound company I worked for, pretty solid, sounded good but not great.); and a few others whose names I can't recall.

Feel free to follow up with links to amps you are considering so I (and others) can offer up comments.