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So, trust the scientists...sure...but give us some real numbers please. Back up your recommendations with likelihood of contracting and spreading the virus if you are vaccinated and are interacting with people that are not and with people that are. Then people can make informed decisions rather than "It's x-ratio higher than it was."
What's frustrating that many of those numbers are out there, but they are hard to find and many of them aren't properly peer-reviewed, because nobody is apparently willing to put in the resources to that. There simply is a lack of good, central coordination around the globe.
What's also frustrating is that something like the CDC has been politically biased and basically isn't allowed to do much of their work, without pleasing a whole bunch of politicians in the process. This kind of approach is simply dead wrong, but hard to avoid in the current political climate.
It's incredible to see what kind of mess we made of this whole situation and sorry, but much of the blame squarely falls on the U.S. in this case. Yeah, China and to some extend also the E.U. did their part, but the U.S. in their leading role was really the hotspot of Corona-Stupidity around the globe. Instead of trying to unite the world behind one body like the WHO, which by all means isn't perfect, but about the best thing we have as a kind of global health coordinator, the U.S. managed to quit it... This utterly brain-amputated and testosterone-driven decision did not only impair the funding of the W.H.O. but gave other idiots in power across the globe sufficient ammunition to defend their own brain-dead Corona policies. Those brain-dead, non-united "Left' v.s. Right" policies in turn gave rise of many of the current anti-vaxers, who may be the reason why we'll never entirely defeat this virus...
For all this griping about what the CDC, doctors and scientists said at one time versus another, I really wish the same standard of blame or accountability would be hammered on the talking heads of cable news, the various media personalities on TV or online as well as the legions of arm-chair quarterbacks with zero expertise in anything medical related all doing their part to make the situation worse. A bunch of those people are deliberately spreading misinformation and propaganda in return for ratings points and ad dollars. It's flagrant negligence.
The lawmakers and media personalities deserve a million times more blame over muddying the waters on COVID-19 response than health care professionals. And let's not leave out a giant amount of the general public deliberately choosing to be stupid as hell on this topic. They deserve zero cover.
I won't go along with just heaping all the blame or the CDC, Anthony Fauci or any other qualified expert when too much of the public is willfully, deliberately rejecting anything the experts say and doing whatever the hell they want -like refusing to get vaccinated and refusing to take any precautions. Those people have only themselves to blame when they infected, spread it others (including children), possibly get seriously ill or even die. That's all on them 100%. A bunch of these people are just as loony as the flat-earthers (or maybe a bunch are one in the same).
Really, the pandemic situation is not hard to understand when looking at the big picture view. The goal is cutting the chain of disease transmission to starve out this fucking virus. That's it. And so many people are coming up with every damn excuse in the book to allow this virus to keep thriving, spreading and mutating. The penalty for letting this virus circulate too long is that it will eventually mutate into something worse. Given enough time it may eventually beat our vaccines, become even more contagious and/or become even more deadly. Through society's own stupidity we're giving this virus every chance to live up to its worst potential. This stuff about scapegoating the CDC or whoever is just a bunch of crap. At some point personal responsibility must take over.
Bobby, I problem I have with the CDC and Dr. Fauci, particularly on this last round of masking recommendations is the complete lack of data They are using comparative numbers with "X-times the mount" or "more likely." So you (figurative for any talking head health person) tell me that if you go into an area that has a high concentration of virus you are more likely to contract the virus. Well yeah, that isn't news. You tell me that even vaccinated people can get the virus because the vaccine isn't 100% effective...yeah still isn't news. A vaccinated person, if they contract the virus can pass it along...again, isn't news and all are, at best low in information or guidance.
What is the likelihood of a vaccinated person to contract the virus if surrounded by unvaccinated people and let's presume that unvaccinated people are highly likely to contract the virus?
What is the likelihood of a vaccinated person to contract the virus if surrounded by vaccinated people knowing that a small percentage of those vaccinated people will become a break through case?
What is the likelihood of a vaccinated person to contract the virus and then pass it onto their children that cannot, at this time, be vaccinated?
Now, what is the seriousness of a vaccinated person contracting the virus...that is, what is the likelihood of them having a serious health ramification or death?
Now, rank that as compared to normal, non-virus activities so people will know where this virus stands for them compared to their everyday life of driving, walking down the street, getting struck by lightning.
Repeat for those unvaccinated. And that comparison should be very stark...just like those currently in the hospital with C19 and those that have died that are unvaccinated versus those that are vaccinated.
But using comparative terms like 10-times as many "cases" (for which cases, among the vaccinated can and does mean far less than unvaccinated...testing positive on a nasal swab does not necessarily mean it has broken through, but does make you a case) is a meaningless statement unless numbers are associated. Going from 1 to 10 cases is noise...going from 100,000 to 1 million could be significant...both are a 10:1 increase.
I saw Dr. Fauci, this morning, claim that the masking recommendation was because even those vaccinated have a non-zero chance (paraphrase) of contracting and passing on the virus. Again...that isn't news and just about everything in life has a non-zero chance of resulting in serious injury or death. Where does this, for the vaccinated, fall in that huge range winning the lottery is more likely to "get your affairs in order." Well meaning people are scared to death (no pun) about this and are depending on the experts to provide them information.
Don't tell me what isn't too inconvenient or too big an ask (it isn't an ask if the government requires it). Provide the data, if you have it. Back up your recommendations with something other than "we're seeing a large increase in cases." And then noting that they are overwhelmingly of the unvaccinated. Throw some numbers in there, show some graphs let people see the REAL danger based on their circumstance (vaccinated status, and how it may relate to other health concerns for themselves or those within their "bubble").
Bobby, I problem I have with the CDC and Dr. Fauci, particularly on this last round of masking recommendations is the complete lack of data They are using comparative numbers with "X-times the mount" or "more likely."
Complete lack of data? Have you not been keeping up with current events? Delta accounts for 90% of new cases. Or are they just fabricating that info? It sounds like you're rejecting the finding that Delta is 3 times more contagious than the Alpha variant. Honestly, at this point, I couldn't care less about diving deep into nerdy data. Because what the hell difference does it make? It is very clear the pandemic is getting worse. That's clearly true in my town. Our hospitals are full. They're trying to send severely ill COVID-19 patients to OKC or out of state and finding those hospitals full too. Now deaths are starting to tick up again in my town after being minimal since May.
Where is all the peer reviewed data backing up the claims of talking heads on 24 cable news networks? Those highly paid whores are saying whatever bullshit they want without any burden of proof or accountability. Same for the media personalities online.
Originally posted by Steve Guttag
Now, rank that as compared to normal, non-virus activities so people will know where this virus stands for them compared to their everyday life of driving, walking down the street, getting struck by lightning.
Apples to oranges comparisons. People have a hell of a lot more control over the act of driving a car safely, walking down the street or having enough common sense to get indoors during a thunderstorm. Deaths from those factors are pretty small compared to the death toll of COVID-19. Over the duration of this pandemic only heart disease and cancer have killed more Americans.
Originally posted by Steve Guttag
Don't tell me what isn't too inconvenient or too big an ask (it isn't an ask if the government requires it).
I can look back at the real hardships and sacrifices Americans made during the Great Depression and the war efforts for WWI, WWII and the Korean War. So many Americans today are whiny little bitches compared to those people. They're getting their panties in a twist (or even getting homicidal in some cases) over just being ASKED to wear a facemask indoors.
This is why I mostly don't give a shit anymore if a bunch of people in my city or elsewhere don't want to get vaccinated, don't want to mask up or bother to take any other precautions. Don't want to get the shot or mask up? Fine! See if I care. My only concern is kids under age 12 who can't get vaccinated yet. But I don't have any kids of my own, so I'm not stressing badly at all compared to real parents of young children. As for the adults not taking precautions? I couldn't care less. At this point, if they get infected, get seriously ill or even die, my attitude is, "oh well, sucks to be them." They're Darwin Awards Winners as far as I'm concerned.
I'm kind of hoping this new "surge" really quickly flares up as bad or even worse than the possibilities they're forecasting. With a rapid enough spike Delta might hit a maximum number of unvaccinated people and maybe burn itself out all of a sudden. It could bring the pandemic to a faster end, finally. Because a bunch of people out there are never going to get vaccinated. So they might as well get the alternative, the virus itself, and live with whatever consequences come with it. I just want this pandemic over and done with already. But letting the virus burn itself through the 100 million or so unvaccinated Americans does run the risk of breeding new variants into existence. At this point I think I'm okay with that gamble.
Complete lack of data? Have you not been keeping up with current events? Delta accounts for 90% of new cases.
Sure. Delta is the dominate variant. Sure, 3X more contagious. What percentage of those cases are vaccinated breakout cases? Of those, how many are severe (requiring hospitalization) or deadly? What is the likelihood a vaccinated person will either contract the virus or have a bad outcome? No data. Stating 3X as contagious is not data.
Our hospitals are full
Of? Unvaccinated? It makes the case for vaccination, not masking. Or is the claim that a significant percentage of these people were the victims of contracting the virus from a breakout vaccinated person and they were unable to protect themselves due to some pre-existing condition?
Deaths from those factors are pretty small compared to the death toll of COVID-19. Over the duration of this pandemic only heart disease and cancer have killed more Americans.
Again...yes, from unvaccinated people. How many vaccinated people are now dying of Covid-19, as a percentage? Where is that danger ranking as compared to normal daily activities?
If you look at the hardships you cited, the group living through the hardships were the effected group. You still haven't shown what the risk is of a vaccinated person is contracting the virus. And then what the risk (likelihood) of that person transmitting it.
The concern of the under-12 group is a real one. If I had a child that could not be vaccinated, it would change how we (our household) would interact with the world...the same way we would if he had some other condition where an infection would be threatening. That sort of thing pre-exists C19 and the world did not stop and completely alter itself. With any luck, we'll get the vaccines down to the 6-12 year olds so all of the normal K-12 schools will have a good solution. That would leave just pre-k.
As to the people that choose to be unvaccinated, like you, I'm done...to look at the numbers that ARE available and that the current hospitalizations are something on the order of 99.5% unvaccinated and ignore it as a conspiracy, screw em. The evidence is overwhelming.
One aspect to this I find worrying is the tendency of some in the political class to argue that only the professionally medically qualified should be allowed to voice an opinion and be taken seriously. H.G. Wells warned against going that route in The Shape of Things to Come (and to a lesser extent, the f*****g absymal 1935 movie adaptation of it). Anyone who is affected by the decisions made by politicians in respect of covid (and any other public policy issue) deserves to be heard. I'm not an epidemiologist, but Fauci does not work for a small to medium-sized business that has been whacked by the public health policies that he has advocated and encouraged (I do).
Originally posted by Bobby Henderson
People have a hell of a lot more control over the act of driving a car safely, walking down the street or having enough common sense to get indoors during a thunderstorm. Deaths from those factors are pretty small compared to the death toll of COVID-19.
This time last year, maybe: not now. You don't have control over how safely or otherwise the others you share the road with drive. They typically kill between 3,000 and 4,000 Californians every year. Per the CDC's figures, there have been something like 1,400 deaths of fully vaccinated individuals who had covid in their system at the time of death (which doesn't necessary mean that covid was the only or primary cause of their death). And to bring this on topic, it seems that the covid crisis has encouraged dangerous driving, and contributed to the worsening of what was already, IMHO, a neglected public health crisis (reckless and aggressive driving). As someone who has to drive around 30,000 miles a year to and from service calls, this is obviously something I feel very strongly about. But even if you only do the average national mileage of a typical American (said to be around 12k miles a year), the statistics still suggest that you are far more likely to be killed by one of your fellow road users than by covid.
I'm not sure I am following the concept of comparing driving to Covid. Nobody has the right to endanger other, and never has had that right. The correct comparison would be to compare going out unvaccinated/maskless to drunk driving, which is a crime.
If being unvaccinated only affect the person in question, I would be supporting their right not to be vaccinated, but it affects everyone they come in contact with. This is not new. How many people today remember the story of Mary Mallon, more commonly known as Typhoid Mary, an asymptomatic woman who was forceably committed to over 23 of hospital quarantine because she refused to partake in the basic safety requirements of the time..
Mitchell, what you missed is the "endangering" another with respect to the vaccinated and masking. What is the danger you speak of? What percentage of vaccinated people are contracting the virus and becoming contagious? What is the danger of that rare person to another vaccinated person? The risk, thus far, has not been assessed in any sort of meaningful way. As for comparing it to driving. The very act of anyone driving endangers all other drivers (and themselves). There is a non-zero risk with most any activity of endangering someone else or yourself. Somewhere, there is a risk threshold where people feel the risk/reward is a worth it. The problem with intoxication and driving is that it dramatically shifts the risk WAY up (what percentage of auto accidents can be traced to alcohol use?)
When we are talking "un-vaccinated" do we mean, those who do not have the antibodies? The CDC says those who have the natural antibodies from having had the virus should not need to get the vaccine. The CDC strongly suggest that even those that have the antibodies get the vaccine because the CDC does not know how long natural immunity will last... but they also don't know how long the vaccine will last.
The health field estimates that half of those un-vaccinated have or believe they have the antibodies. If this estimate is correct and if half the country has the vaccine, we are at approx 75% of the population who has the antibodies and we should be nearing the number we where promised would bring herd immunity.
There are side effects to the vaccine. My sister is going through some medical treatments and was told that she has the antibodies and getting the virus would cause side effects that would complicate the treatments. Some people have allergies to the vaccine and the CDC recommends that those people do NOT get the vaccine or be careful which vaccine you get. There are also people who will not get the vaccine due to religious reasons.
I have been asking for the science for over a year.. ask to often and you will be bullied and punished. Our local health department said we did not have to wear a mask if we are working with someone who is hearing impaired, I was lectured by the health department that I should wear a clear plastic sheet over our mouth and nose as if it was cloth.. now that sounds safe.. Is there any science that says suffocation is healthy?..lol. They never did provide any science.
I have been asking for the science for over a year.. ask to often and you will be bullied and punished.
Amen, and at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, the mainstream political and media establishment bullying and punishing those who voice any hesitancy or concerns about universal, mandatory mass vaccination are largely to blame for complete, certifiable and unmitigated wack jobs like David Icke attracting crowds of thousands to their rallies.
The point is, I made my own decision after doing my own research. I feel very uneasy about employers in particular forcing their staff to get the vax, some of whom won't have medically qualified family and friends to consult, and, at the risk of sounding elitist, would struggle to do their own research and draw evidence-based conclusions from it. They will be easily pressured into making a decision without fully understanding what might be bigger risks than they were with me.
Originally posted by Mitchell Dvoskin
I'm not sure I am following the concept of comparing driving to Covid. Nobody has the right to endanger other, and never has had that right. The correct comparison would be to compare going out unvaccinated/maskless to drunk driving, which is a crime.
I admit that it's not a perfect comparison. But I think it can be a useful one. Road accidents kill around 35,000 Americans a year. The statistics for non-fatal injuries and economic damage are a lot more hazy and the comparisons become difficult, so let's stick with deaths. To be blunt, we, as a society, are OK with that. There are things we could do to drive that figure down, most notably zero tolerance law enforcement. But we don't do them, because they are too expensive and too unpopular. Covid has been involved in the deaths of around 1,400 fully vaccinated Americans this year so far. We appear, as a society, to be not OK with that, because seriously intrusive regulations and restrictions are making a comeback. Another direct comparison is that there is a mix of factors that are within our control, and factors that are not, that can reduce or increase our chances of being killed by either cause (a road accident or covid).
My point is that with covid, we now appear to be imposing risk mitigation measures that are out of proportion to the threat, relative to the risk mitigation measures that we take, and tolerate, against other comparable threats.
Due to rising numbers of unvaccinated people in Saskatchewan hospitals (to a point that they have had to cut back on health services for things that aren't directly covid-related), the Saskatchewan government just announced that masks will be mandatory in all indoor spaces as of tomorrow (Sept 17) and starting on October 1 a "vaccine passport" will be required for entry to non-essential businesses.
The plan is to remove the mandatory masking requirement at the end of October, after the vaccine passport system has been in place for a month.
I, for one, am very happy to see this. For the past few weeks I've been wearing a mask myself and I've had a sign on the door saying that "We recommend that you wear a mask while in the theatre". About 25% of the customers have been doing so. As for requiring proof of vaccination I was previously advised that it would be illegal for me to require that since I would be asking for "confidential health information". But now that it's an actual health order, with a verification app for businesses and everything, that's no longer an issue.
The Saskatchewan Premier said "Our patience is at an end and we are going to make it a lot less comfortable to remain unvaccinated in Saskatchewan."
I have kept myself out of this discussion for some time, as I was still doing a lot of research and consultation with my doctor as to vax or no vax.
With his blessing, he agreed with my case being best to NOT get any of the vax out so far. The main reason is that my blood clotting issue has never been properly narrowed down as to what of the dozen or so factors caused it. It is known that only a few of the factors can be triggered or affected by the vax, but since we cannot determine my specific factor(s) it is too risky to try a vax. (To explain, my first clot came without any signs or warnings, After clearing it in 12 months, I was taken off the thinners, and needed to stay off of them for three months to get the battery of tests done to figure out what factors I had. But I reclotted severely in about a month, so I am on Warfarin for the rest of my life.) In my case, regardless of the trigger, my next clot WILL be fatal, as too much damage has been done by the first two.
The secondary reason was that I take fementodine (I think I spelled that wrong) aka Pepsid, daily for my acid reflux, and some studies suggested that Pepsid and its F-word generics may actually suppress or kill the covid virus. Despite having a few of my former co-workers getting covid, and my (limited) exposure to them, I have not gotten covid. (Yes I have been tested, twice so far.)
I am of the position that yes, covid is real, it is unique, but I also don't fully agree that it is as bad as it has been made out to be. My doctor agreed with that, and he opined that it is a "super-flu" type of thing. And so far, the only patients of his or his colleagues who have died from it were ALL immuno-compromised or had other major health issues. All the rest of cases he is aware of (and he mentioned that the numbers were more on the level of a strong flu outbreak) recovered with no lasting effects.
As for the vax mandates, I feel they are wrong, not a real solution to the problem, and will face serious legal challenges.
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