Covid testing trauma

[Leo Enticknap]

We don't have any European-style "track and trace" app here, so the chances are that if Cinemacon was a spreader event, we'll likely never know. If eight out of ten Regal managers come down with it around now (I use that as an example, purely because Regal appeared to have the largest single delegation - not singling them out for any sinister reason!), put two and two together, and start posting their suspicions on social media, maybe. But if 200 random attendees are infected, 170 of whom are asymptomatic and the other 30 mildly to intermediately symptomatic (which, given that you either had to be vaxxed or submit to nasal sodomy in order to register, would be the most likely scenario), they're not going to contact each other to compare notes.

[Steve Guttag]

Or, to put it another way..., any COVID related issues were probably insignificant, if at all. If someone ends up succumbing to C19 (dies), then there would be a correlation.

[Leo Enticknap]

It would depend on how much investigating was done. Cinemacon was almost two weeks ago. C19 can have an incubation period as long as three weeks between infection and first symptoms, and it can be another 4-6 weeks after that until death. Someone who attended Cinemacon and received an eventually fatal infection will have been in a lot of different places, and met a lot of different people, between that moment and admission to the hospital.

One of the criticisms of the UK National Health Service's "track and trace" app is that it vacuums up (British English: hoovers up!) every single contact between two people carrying a phone running the app, based on locations reported by the phone's GPS receiver; and then when a user tests positive, literally several hundred others who have been within a few feet of him or her within the previous several weeks could be ordered to quarantine, even if they were only in range for a few seconds and both were wearing masks. In short, it's a very blunt instrument.

Unless something very dramatic happens, like 30-40 Cinemacon attendees get seriously enough ill to be hospitalized, I can't see how the correlation could ever be reliably made, if any spreading did take place. The reason that correlation was made in the case of Obama's party was that almost everyone involved were high profile individuals: there were about 600 celebs on one property. If a celeb becomes significantly ill with C19, (s)he's going to tweet and Instagram and Facebook about it up the wazoo, which is what enabled that event to be identified as a spreader event. But that's not the case for an event like Cinemacon, or 99.9% of other large scale gatherings.

[Steve Guttag]

Yeah...but if you don't get 30-40 CinemaCon attendees coming down with it (not even succumbing but actually being affected by it), it starts to become like any other virus...a statistical non-issue. 0% infection is an unrealistic (and unnecessary) number, if one is being consistent with other life activities.

[Mike Blakesley]

I don't even know how you get Covid anymore.

Originally we were told that if you happened to touch a surface than an infected person had touched, coughed on or whatever.....you were toast. Eventually, that went away. I don't know if anybody is cleaning anything anymore, except maybe some restaurants...maybe.

We were told to all walk the same directions in the stores, but that was too inconvenient so that went away.

Then we were told that it mostly spreads via droplets, but the contact tracing has only ever counted people who you were with for more than fifteen minutes...or five minutes, depending on who you were talking to.

We were told that masks weren't necessary, then they were necessary, then you needed two or three, but then one was enough, but only necessary indoors, blah blah blah.

Then we were told that if you were vaxed you were virtually certain not to get Covid.... until that didn't apply any more and now you're just as screwed either way, which removes the biggest selling point for getting vaxed, except now you're only virtually certain not to die, but even that is going away as I heard today about a 20 year old woman, who was fully vaxed with no underlying conditions, who died of Covid. So, maybe nothing works.

It's no wonder people are confused/angry/indecisive/upset, with all the clap-trap that is masquerading as the truth out there it's impossible to tell what the truth IS.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I don't even know how you get Covid anymore.

Originally we were told that if you happened to touch a surface than an infected person had touched, coughed on or whatever.....you were toast. Eventually, that went away. I don't know if anybody is cleaning anything anymore, except maybe some restaurants...maybe.

It really isn't that difficult. Initially, nobody knew how it was transmitted, that's why we started to disinfect everything...

Now we know it's airborne, it attaches itself to droplets in the air. It also won't survive all that long in outdoor conditions with sufficient UV light.

All non-N95/FFP2 masks will not stop virus particles, as they're too small to be filtered. But, those masks will stop infected people to spread it through the air. So, the idea is that if sufficient people wear masks, people will stop infecting each other. Most empirical data shows this to have a positive effect on covid infection rates, although numbers are often open to some interpretation.

The easiest way to contract it by my own experience is to sit in a small room together with an infected person for a prolonged time, that's how most people I know got it... and that's also an effective way to contract the common cold...

the current vaccines don't stop vaccinated people from spreading the virus if they contract it. Vaccinated people can still get sick, but hard breakthrough cases are rare.

I guess by this time, we should start to let most COVID restrictions go, at least everywhere where people had ample opportunities to get vaccinated. People who have chosen to not get vaccinated by now know what their potential risks are.

[Steve Guttag]

Then we were told that if you were vaxed you were virtually certain not to get Covid.... until that didn't apply any more and now you're just as screwed either way, which removes the biggest selling point for getting vaxed, except now you're only virtually certain not to die, but even that is going away as I heard today about a 20 year old woman, who was fully vaxed with no underlying conditions, who died of Covid. So, maybe nothing works.

It's no wonder people are confused/angry/indecisive/upset, with all the clap-trap that is masquerading as the truth out there it's impossible to tell what the truth IS.

This, right there is part of the problem. People have such a poor grasp of large numbers. So, a person of 20, vaxxed died of C19. Horrible, yes...but statistically insignificant. Nothing is 100% and the vaccines had an efficacy rating from the upper 60s to mid 90s. What that means is that IF you are exposed like everyone else in the same room, if you are vaxxed your chance drops to 5% (for a 95%) compared to the unvaxxed. It isn't even a 5% chance, it is 5% compared to unvaxxed for which people unvaxxed do not necessarily contract it. But let's say everyone is heavily exposed so we get to nearly 5% vaxxed infected. That's still 16.5 million people, in the US alone. So, you hearing of a 20-year old, vaxxed dying of C19 believable? Sure, but compared to the number of vaxxed people not having a bad case, let alone death, is a HUGE landslide difference.

I've heard anti-vaxxers (or vaxxine hesitant) claim dumb things like well, it is just 1% that die...okay...that would be 3.3 million people in the US, instead of 630K. To not see that masking efforts as well as sanitation (when has sanitation been all that bad?) to not have had an effect (a large one) is absurd.

Where it has been turned on its head is since vaccination the percentage of people vaccinated that either get the virus (not just cases) or have a bad outcome has been driven way down into the low percentages. Furthermore, if you look at the chances of a vaxxed person transmitting to another vaxxed person (so a breakout case causing another breakout case)...you are more likely to be in an auto accident (regardless if you were a driver or passenger) than succumbing to C19. The risk level is extremely low for vaccinated people. It isn't zero and yes, a 20-year old will die of it anyway. Still tragic. But it isn't the level that society should change for. Statistically, more 20-year olds will/have die on the road than C19 in 2021. It likely won't even be close. At present, this is almost entirely a problem of the unvaccinated. Unfortunately, they are clogging up the ERs for people that need to be there, likely not by choice.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Unfortunately, they are clogging up the ERs for people that need to be there, likely not by choice.

Simple solution: If at capacity, prioritize those that are vaccinated or have a valid reason, like a health condition, not to be vaccinated. Life shouldn't award stupidity.

[Mark Lane]

[QUOTE=Marcel Birgelen;n13880]


All non-N95/FFP2 masks will not stop virus particles, as they're too small to be filtered. But, those masks will stop infected people to spread it through the air. So, the idea is that if sufficient people wear masks, people will stop infecting each other. Most empirical data shows this to have a positive effect on covid infection rates, although numbers are often open to some interpretation.


I am confused. Are you saying that the mask will not stop the particles from entering my lungs as I inhale, because the particles are to small for the mask to be effective but that mask will stop the particles when someone exhales?

[Bobby Henderson]

This, right there is part of the problem. People have such a poor grasp of large numbers.

The problem is compounded by our news-as-entertainment industry. They boost their ratings (and ad sales revenue) by selling fear and anger. They deliberately amplify the emotional angle on everything -usually tilted with a bad news bias. The practice results in people watching a particular show more often and keeping the TV switched to that channel longer. Decades ago TV news wasn't the profit engine it is now. Back then it was presented a lot more "dry" and dispassionate.

When break-thru COVID-19 cases among fully vaccinated people started occurring the news media naturally had a ball manipulating viewers with it. They're either scaring the hell out of fully vaccinated people. Or they're giving the unvaccinated folks the message that vaccines don't work.

The truth about the benefits of masks and vaccines is not hard to understand at all. And it's really not hard to understand if one takes a break from the 24 hour cable news channels, social media groups and politically charged web sites. All it takes is just thinking a little bit.

Deep down I think many of the anti mask/vaccine people do understand the truth. They're just not going to admit it. They're holding onto any excuse they can cite or make up to avoid wearing a mask or getting vaccinated. They've picked their "team" and want to prove their team is right and everyone else is wrong and they might be willing to die over that stance. It appears most are motivated by politics and allegiance to a certain orange-headed "hero" -which doesn't make any sense since the "hero" in question was fully vaccinated early on and has told his fans on numerous occasions to get vaccinated (drawing boos in response with his latest endorsement of vaccines). It's really odd how many anti-vax folks wrap themselves up in the American flag when broadcasting their militant stance. To me, the truly patriotic thing is to get vaccinated, to mask up in public, to be considerate of your other fellow Americans. Y'know, helping protect "we the people." That's REAL patriotism.

Sadly, the behavior pattern of anti-vax hold-outs seems to waiver only when someone they know has been severely sickened or killed by COVID-19. I've seen it for myself. One of my friends died in April; his death changed the minds of a few other friends who then got vaccinated. I've seen it again just recently. Here in Lawton our vaccination rate among those eligible has only now hit the 50% mark. IMHO, I think it's pretty damn selfish for it to take the death of a friend or family member to convince some knucklehead to get vaccinated. And for a lot of people around here even those deaths aren't enough to convince them.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I am confused. Are you saying that the mask will not stop the particles from entering my lungs as I inhale, because the particles are to small for the mask to be effective but that mask will stop the particles when someone exhales?

If you breathe out, cough or sneeze, most virus particles will be bonded to aerosols, as the virus seemingly can't survive for long in the "thin air". Any mask will prevent most of those droplets from spreading into the air. Any viral matter that's not bound to those aerosols will quickly render itself ineffective.

A mask will inadvertently absorb aerosols from the space you're in. If they contain viral matter, this can get airborne again and viral matter can and probably will still enter your airways. Once it's inside your body, the conditions to "survive" will increase dramatically. Once you've absorbed more "viral load" than your immune system will be able to handle, you're looking at a potential COVID-19 infection.

[Mike Blakesley]

It appears most are motivated by politics and allegiance to a certain orange-headed "hero"

I think that covers a few of them, but not all. I think many of the anti-vaxers are people who have been anti-vax for many years, before Trump ever thought of running for prez. They don't vaccinate their kids either.

If you breathe out, cough or sneeze, most virus particles will be bonded to aerosols, as the virus seemingly can't survive for long in the "thin air". Any mask will prevent most of those droplets from spreading into the air. Any viral matter that's not bound to those aerosols will quickly render itself ineffective.

I had a visit with my friend Keith, who is a paramedic and our local director of emergency services. I said, "the typical mask isn't dense enough to stop the virus completely, right?" He said, "Right." I said "So you're basically hoping the virus happens to get tangled up in the mask on the way in or out of your body...right?" He said "That's basically it, yeah."

[Carsten Kurz]

There are different types of masks. Those for medical staff has a better fit and advanced filter density. They are also heavier to breathe through.

[Bobby Henderson]

I had a visit with my friend Keith, who is a paramedic and our local director of emergency services. I said, "the typical mask isn't dense enough to stop the virus completely, right?" He said, "Right." I said "So you're basically hoping the virus happens to get tangled up in the mask on the way in or out of your body...right?" He said "That's basically it, yeah."

The very simple fact is any mask is going to reduce the amount of particles someone exhales out into the air for other people to potentially inhale. That cuts the risk of others from getting infected. It doesn't reduce the risk entirely, but risk reduction is still better than not making any effort at all.

Sure, a N95 mask is going to be a lot more effective than an ordinary cloth mask. The fact still remains that a cloth mask is still much better than wearing nothing at all. Again, pretty easy simple stuff to understand. I don't know why so many people are hopelessly hung up on absolutes. The anti-mask situation is so damned block-headed that it's as if they're arguing absolute choices of going outside either in an astronaut suit or buck-ass naked.

[Lyle Romer]

They're holding onto any excuse they can cite or make up to avoid wearing a mask or getting vaccinated. They've picked their "team" and want to prove their team is right and everyone else is wrong and they might be willing to die over that stance. It appears most are motivated by politics and allegiance to a certain orange-headed "hero"I]

By percentage of population, the least vaccinated group is African Americans. I don't think very many of them are motivated by that person. Also, you are wrong when you say that people are motivated by politics. They are motivated by distrust in Government. I personally think it is a bad choice not to get vaccinated. There's almost no risk of harm being done by the vaccine. Whatever percentage it reduces the risk of severe illness from COVID far outweighs the risk.

However, I can understand the distrust some people have especially when the CDC keeps changing guidelines for vaccinated people. This vaccine mandate push by the federal government is going to backfire and make these people more resistant. What they should have done is made the $1,300 "stimulus" payment from the last gazillion dollar COVID package contingent on getting vaccinated. A significant financial incentive might have worked.

I know people like to blame a segment with certain political beliefs for the current COVID situation. However, take a look at Scotland. 91% of their 18+ population has at least one vaccine dose. They are currently in the middle of their worst outbreak of the entire pandemic which is over twice the daily cases of the prior worst. Unfortunately, vaccination doesn't look like it is going to eradicate COVID. This isn't a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" no matter what Fauci says. The unvaccinated may get more severe illness when they are infected on average but plenty of fully vaccinated people are getting infected.

I actually personally know more people who are fully vaccinated and have had breakthrough cases than I know who had a case before vaccines were available or are unvaccinated and got infected.