Really stupid question: showing flat films on Scope screens

[William Kucharski]

OK, world's most stupid question, but how do most theaters handle this?

My local drive-in has Scope-sized screens, but for years now they've setup their projector to show Scope content to fill the Scope screen and flat content… is just zoomed to fill the screen and as a result they lose content off the top and bottom of the screen.

I don't know if other theaters typically have different lenses they use for this, if there is an option on the projector to show the flat content within a Scope container so it is pillarboxed, or if there is a way to force ingest to place the flat package inside a Scope container.

Or is this just a one click change within the TMS?

Thanks in advance; told you it was a stupid question.

[Frank Cox]

I have a scope sized screen (exactly, since I put a scope test pattern on the screen and built the masking up to that) and I show flat movies pillarboxed (full screen height and a foot or so of blank on each side).

My projector has an auxiliary lens that automatically drives itself in front of the lens that's attached to the projector when I'm showing a scope movie and moves back out of the way when I'm showing a flat movie. It's my understanding that this is a bit unusual for some reason related to the size of my screen, and most theatres can do both scope and flat using just one single lens.

[William Kucharski]

The owners of the drive-in said they didn't want to pay to have a tech come out to adjust things for flat, but I don't know if they would really need to do that or not, thus the query.

They don't have a multi-lens sled as indoor theaters do for 3D.

[Bobby Henderson]

I would not tolerate a theater showing flat 1.85:1 content zoomed to fill a 'scope-shaped screen. I've seen such things happen via errors in the projection setup, but not by deliberate choice.

[William Kucharski]

I've seen the a scope film showed as full before so you lose the sides twice at a local Alamo Drafthouse.

With the drive-in, I'm not happy but want to keep them around, but if there is something simple I can tell them to do that doesn't require a tech to come out, I'd love to but know their projectors don't have sleds, motorized or manual.

[Julian Antos]

Unless the lens they’re using is out of range, it should take a technician or projectionist about 15 minutes to set up a separate preset for 1.85 movies. I’m not aware of any lenses for DCI projectors that AREN’T zoom lenses so it seems unlikely that there are physical limitations in their setup restricting them from making an improvement.

[William Kucharski]

Are the presets done on the projector or in software or do the changes need to be done manually?

[Marcel Birgelen]

Sorry, playing a flat movie zoomed into scope on a scope-sized screen really is unacceptable... even the amateurs at your local multiplex should manage to get that right...

I have a scope sized screen (exactly, since I put a scope test pattern on the screen and built the masking up to that) and I show flat movies pillarboxed (full screen height and a foot or so of blank on each side).

My projector has an auxiliary lens that automatically drives itself in front of the lens that's attached to the projector when I'm showing a scope movie and moves back out of the way when I'm showing a flat movie. It's my understanding that this is a bit unusual for some reason related to the size of my screen, and most theatres can do both scope and flat using just one single lens.

What you have is an anamorphic attachment. The projector will stretch the scope movie to fit the imager and the scope lens will optically stretch it back into the correct aspect ratio. This setup is more expensive than doing scope just by zooming in, but bumps the light efficiency of your projector considerably. Those setups are increasingly rare and especially for smaller sized screens. Still, the main lens will be a zoom lens and will probably have sufficient range to do scope without the attachment.

[William Kucharski]

To be fair, it's a family owned drive-in, and I'd like to help them if at all possible.

But if it requires manually adjusting something, they will probably stick with their lens set to display Scope content on their Scope screen. They do have a good projectionist, but he's not there every night.

As much as it bothers me, again I was the only person to notice this until I pointed it out to friends (who of course were mildly upset as they always saw it after that. )

[Carsten Kurz]

With certain types of projectors, it is POSSIBLE to adjust the lens settings manually without breaking something. So, using these lens control buttons, they could check wether the lens is suitable for a full frame flat presentation. Once the show is started, the server/projector will use the stored setting again (ooops, if there actually IS a stored setting at all...).


Given the lack of knowledge on their side, I have to assume, though, that once they see what will happen, they will not like to have this change implemented, as then only part of their screen width will be used in the future.

As well, most of the audience will simply not miss anything with top and bottom cropped away, but will prefer the larger scope size image, unfortunately.

You would probably have to ask them for permission to enter the booth and take some pictures of the lens and projector to find out what happens during a show.

Sheesh, 2022, and some sites do not even know about projector macros. But, given this is a drive in, it could just as well be possible they have some special lens set or other limitations, like throw limitation, a malfunctioning lens drive motor, etc. Ask them wether they have a tech, and call him to find out what he has set up there.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Sheesh, 2022, and some sites do not even know about projector macros. But, given this is a drive in, it could just as well be possible they have some special lens set or other limitations, like throw limitation, a malfunctioning lens drive motor, etc. Ask them wether they have a tech, and call him to find out what he has set up there.

Sorry, drive-in or not... those things are the bare minimum of your daily operation. It feels the same like arriving at a burger joint where the burger flipper doesn't actually know how to flip burgers and just cooks them in the microwave instead...

[Barry Floyd]

My drive-in has SCOPE screens, 25 feet x 59.75 feet and have no issue with flat or scope settings. Its all in how you set up your lens files and screen files during the initial setup of your projectors. When we play SCOPE, we fill the screen side to side and top to bottom. No cropping. When we play flat features, we fill the screen top to bottom but leave 6.75 feet black on the left and right sides of the screen. We don't zoom it in to fill the screen width for the exact reason you mentioned. Sounds like a lens motor issue, macro issue, or "owner doesn't care" issue. It can't be fixed if its the latter.

When we ran 35mm, our aperture plates were never filed from the stock plates that we bought from Hadden Theatre Supply. They didn't need to be. Because the screen is exactly scope ratio, everything just "fit".

[Jim Cassedy]

"Today's Fun Fotos"
Not too long ago, I was trying to educate yet another film-maker who didn't know his aspects from his elbows.
I took took some photos to help him understand the consequences of the cinematic equivalent of "trying to fit
a square peg into a round hole". ( or, more accurately: "a somewhat square-ish peg into a rectangular hole")
Since the resulting photos are somewhat obliquely related to this thread topic, I thought I'd share the pix here:

"Scope In Flat": Chart=SCOPE / ProjLensMacro=FLAT / MaskingMacro=FLAT
The proj macro zooms to show the entire SCOPE image width, which results in a
'letterbox'effect, with thick black bars at the top & bottom. (The "black bars" show
up as red on this test chart)

"Flat in Scope" : Chart=FLAT / ProjLensMacro=SCOPE / MaskingMacro=SCOPE
This is the reverse situation, with FLAT content projected with projector & masking set
for SCOPEThere is some 'extra" space on the left & right (red on the test chart, black
bars on actual content)~~and the image is also cropped vertically enough to usually
'chop heads' in medium shots & close-ups


"Flat In Flat"- : Chart=FLAT / ProjLensMacro=FLAT / MaskingMacro=FLAT
Compare this to the previous picture and U can C how much of the imagewas
vertically cropped


Actually, this auditorium has both horizontal & vertical motorized masking curtains to accommodate
digital, 35 & 70mm shows, so, in theory I could make either of the "wrong" content & lens combinations
fit the screen, although they would still be "wrong" from a presentation point of view. These photos were
taken using the 'standard' programmed FLAT & SCOPE settings.

OK, so VistaVision™ isn't exactly FLAT or SCOPE, & technically, this isn't V-V
- - I just like this photo. (35mm)
VistavisionScrn.jpg

JimC

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Unless the lens they’re using is out of range, it should take a technician or projectionist about 15 minutes to set up a separate preset for 1.85 movies. I’m not aware of any lenses for DCI projectors that AREN’T zoom lenses so it seems unlikely that there are physical limitations in their setup restricting them from making an improvement.

Schneider introduced a set of primes for Digital back at CinemaCon some years back, or it may have even been at Showest the last year it was held.. They were super high quality and looked great in the demo I saw.. But sadly they never went anywhere. Schneider even had to develop a new low dispersion glass to make the lenses. I HATE! The zoom lenses and the crappy motors they use..

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

"Today's Fun Fotos"
Not too long ago, I was trying to educate yet another film-maker who didn't know his aspects from his elbows.
I took took some photos to help him understand the consequences of the cinematic equivalent of "trying to fit
a square peg into a round hole". ( or, more accurately: "a somewhat square-ish peg into a rectangular hole")
Since the resulting photos are somewhat obliquely related to this thread topic, I thought I'd share the pix here:

"Scope In Flat": Chart=SCOPE / ProjLensMacro=FLAT / MaskingMacro=FLAT
The proj macro zooms to show the entire SCOPE image width, which results in a 'letterbox'
effect, with thick black bars at the top & bottom. (The "black bars" show up as red on this test chart)

"Flat in Scope" : Chart=FLAT / ProjLensMacro=SCOPE / MaskingMacro=SCOPE
This is the reverse situation, with FLAT content projected with projector & masking set for SCOPE
There is some 'extra" space on the left & right (red on the test chart, black bars on actual content)
~~and the image is also cropped vertically enough to usually 'chop heads' in medium shots & close-ups


"Flat In Flat"- : Chart=FLAT / ProjLensMacro=FLAT / MaskingMacro=FLAT
Compare this to the previous picture and U can C how much of the image was vertically cropped


Actually, this auditorium has both horizontal & vertical motorized masking curtains to accommodate
digital, 35 & 70mm shows, so, in theory I could make either of the "wrong" content & lens combinations
fit the screen, although they would still be "wrong" from a presentation point of view. These photos were
taken using the 'standard' programmed FLAT & SCOPE settings.

OK, so VistaVision™ isn't exactly FLAT or SCOPE, & technically, this isn't V-V- - I just like this photo. (35mm)
VistavisionScrn.jpg

JimC

Now you're cook'n Jim. If you ever need an 8 perf projector to run an actual VV or Technirama show just let me know....