Stage Lighting: Very Expensive!

[Bill Seipel]

Depending how sturdy that handrail is, that is a traditional position (mezz rail) in historic theatres. We use ours that way with c-clamps and safeties. Especially viable if you are not seating up there.

If you decide to seat it in the future or don’t like that look, pipe and base “goal-posts” are an option too if there is s flat spot for the bases. But that method is better suited for non-permanent installs.

I took some measurements with the projector running.

If I stand, center position, at the railing, the top of my head ( I am 6'2") is just visible on the screen. After more measurements, it seems like 58 inches is about the tallest this lighting rack can sit.

Clearly we don't want it to block the projector.

Although I 'could' try to construct something under 58", dead-center.... not sure I want to do that. I don't know. I may have a set of four on either side of the 'window' I've got

Really appreciate the feedback.

[Randy Stankey]

I wouldn't use a safety rail to mount lights. A safety rail is a safety rail, put there for a reason. If you want a lighting rail, install a lighting rail, put there for the purpose.

If ever something bad happens and somebody gets hurt or, God forbid, killed, you don't want there to be any questions. It doesn't matter whether lights mounted to the safety rail had anything to do with an accident. There will still be questions and you don't want to be the one standing in front of your boss's desk, answering those questions.

I have been there, before, and I didn't like it one bit. Luckily, it was only a minor accident. A lady slipped and fell on the balcony stairs. She only twisted her ankle. I don't even think she went to the hospital. It happened on a Sunday afternoon. Guess who was standing in the boss's office at 9:05 a.m. on Monday?

I had been telling that son-of-a-bitch, boss of mine FOR YEARS that we needed to get better lighting on those balcony steps and I was roundly ignored every time. But, the first time somebody sprains an ankle, I'm the one who gets called onto the carpet! How fair is that? NOT!

I guarantee, if you put lights on that safety rail and somebody so much as splits a fingernail, it'll be YOUR ass on the line! Not mine!

[Randy Stankey]

If I stand, center position, at the railing, the top of my head ( I am 6'2") is just visible on the screen. After more measurements, it seems like 58 inches is about the tallest this lighting rack can sit.

Clearly we don't want it to block the projector.

Mount a long piece of black iron pipe, horizontally across the ceiling. Affix it to something in the building frame. Bolt it. Weld it. Clamp it. I don't care! Use Super Glue. Whatever you do, make g*d d*mned sure it ain't gonna' come down short of a major earthquake!

Mount your lights to that rail in two groups. Split them far enough apart so that they don't interfere with the projector beam. Cross the center pair so that the house-right one hits the house-center-left side of the stage and the left side, vice versa. Imagine the cone (frustum) of the light beam coming in at an angle from the side. That will give you just a little bit more side to side coverage at the center stage so that you don't have any dead spots and it will keep any lights out of view of the projector and screen. Aim the far-outside pair straight on so that they cover their respective sides of the stage, head on. Fill in the remainder of the lights, evenly across the stage on their respective sides.

When I worked at Mercyhurst we covered the front of our stage in a similar manner. The proscenium was 40-something feet wide. The FOH ligting position was about fifty feet back and fifty feet up. There was a catwalk straight down the center of the house, making it impossible to mount a spotlight center-center. I had to split the lights apart in two groups like I explained above. The lights were ETC SourceFour 26º. Similar to yours but without zoom.

I had to have three groups of lights: One plain white. One bastard amber. The third, pale blue. Then there were the specials for the lectern stage-right and the flags at both extremes. There were twenty-something lights up there. That's where I get the idea to split the lights into groups and cross the center ones.

It's good that, when you get your lights installed you won't have to touch them except for maintenance. I hated going up to that catwalk and fussing with those lights, all the time!

[Bill Seipel]

I wouldn't use a safety rail to mount lights. A safety rail is a safety rail, put there for a reason. If you want a lighting rail, install a lighting rail, put there for the purpose.

If ever something bad happens and somebody gets hurt or, God forbid, killed, you don't want there to be any questions. It doesn't matter whether lights mounted to the safety rail had anything to do with an accident. There will still be questions and you don't want to be the one standing in front of your boss's desk, answering those questions.

I have been there, before, and I didn't like it one bit. Luckily, it was only a minor accident. A lady slipped and fell on the balcony stairs. She only twisted her ankle. I don't even think she went to the hospital. It happened on a Sunday afternoon. Guess who was standing in the boss's office at 9:05 a.m. on Monday?

I had been telling that son-of-a-bitch, boss of mine FOR YEARS that we needed to get better lighting on those balcony steps and I was roundly ignored every time. But, the first time somebody sprains an ankle, I'm the one who gets called onto the carpet! How fair is that? NOT!

I guarantee, if you put lights on that safety rail and somebody so much as splits a fingernail, it'll be YOUR ass on the line! Not mine!

I 'think' there's been some confusion. If not, my apologies. First, the balcony is OFF LIMITS to customers. Employees only.

I will not be installing 15-30's on the existing safety rail. (If one could even call it that. It's 36 inches high and has gaps that are miles wide.)

What I am attempting to do, is to build two structures to sit just behind the safety rail. I didn't want to mount it to the floor at first but I see NO way around it. It will be screwed to the floor. Multiple places.

Similar to the attached drawing.

image.png

[Ryan Gallagher]

I may have a set of four on either side of the 'window' I've got

You are under no obligation to center lights like you would a projector, a gap across the window or where the beam exists is perfectly fine. If your goal were to be "direct front" light... they would actually be spread out a little anyway, about the width of the stage.

But with 8 lights instead of 4 I think you might have the option to do "front-side" style lighting... two units for each of 4 areas, and cluster your lights on the extreme L and R of the balcony positions (that either exist or you create). This is often preferred for the people standing on stage because the sources are more in their periphery instead of staring into what seem like runway landing lights. You'll have less issues of people trying to hide from your light if they aren't being blinded directly from the front.

If you opt for direct front, you probably have more lights than needed and could perhaps re-purpose 3 of them (stair special, and two for curtain warmers... though traditionally Profile/Ellipsoidal fixtures are not the goto for curtain warmers, but in a pinch, if they get big enough, might work).

15-30s are relatively narrow on the small end, but 19-26deg is often the barrel you would want for a mezz position depending on distance, and those zooms cover both those possibilities. Some frost in the gel holder can go a long way to evening out the stage wash too.

The other benefit of ending up with the Zooms is they already have ETC's "Enhanced Definition (ED)" glass elements. This is important for your LED retrofit kits... because with standard def fixed focal length barrels you would be encouraged to upgrade the barrel glass too to get the most out of the LEDs, but you already got the good glass.

Even if you didn't wire them for DMX, I imagine the LED brains have a mode for "on when powered is applied". You'll only need control for real if you want to use them in a more advanced way, and you should eventually, but perhaps that can wait until more $$ is available.

[EDIT to say that 3 areas, 6 lights might make more sense... you always want a Center-Center area. With 1 light per area from front you could get do 5 or 7. Odd number is the trick to preserving that center... unless you dedicate a light for it].

[Randy Stankey]

I understand that you won't be using the rail for lights. I'm only talking like a hard ass to make a point: A safety rail is called "safety" for a reason. To keep people safe.

I don't care if you block the balcony entrance with a brick wall. If anybody ever gets hurt there will be hell to pay. I know because it happened to me, even though I am the one who screamed bloody murder about it in the first place.

I know that you are doing your best to make things as safe as possible. I just don't want you to find yourself in the same position I found myself in. It wasn't any fun!

[Bill Seipel]

I understand that you won't be using the rail for lights. I'm only talking like a hard ass to make a point: A safety rail is called "safety" for a reason. To keep people safe.

I don't care if you block the balcony entrance with a brick wall. If anybody ever gets hurt there will be hell to pay. I know because it happened to me, even though I am the one who screamed bloody murder about it in the first place.

I know that you are doing your best to make things as safe as possible. I just don't want you to find yourself in the same position I found myself in. It wasn't any fun!

You bring up a SOLID point. I think I'm going to have a discussion with the board about having something more than a 'rope' blocking the stairwell.
Thanks!

[Randy Stankey]

Better to speak up on safety issues, even if others don’t listen, than to be caught cold when something bad happens.

At the very least, you’ll be able to say, “I told you so,” hopefully keeping your own ass out of hot water!

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

The LED's can just be plugged into a standard outlet or heavy-duty strip. No dimmer required. They're rated at something like 1.2A draw so a 20A circuit should suffice. The retrofit takes about 5 minutes to complete. Very easy conversion.

We don't really need to control them, other than fading them ON/OFF and I'm not worried about that.
https://www.etcconnect.com/Products/.../Features.aspx

He has 8 ETC 15-30's for sale. I purchased all of them. The LED conversion kits are $650 a piece. So, for $5800, I get professional grade LED stage lights that would have otherwise cost me $16,800.
And they're made in Wisconsin USA.

I feel pretty confident with the level of experience my old friend has. He's been at this professionally for over 20 years. And a long list of satisfied clients.

https://www.advaudio.com/

So, let's consider a few facts again.

You started saying "Our theater doesnt have those kinds of dollars."

We all give you less expensive options, and I spent (wasted) my time giving you direct links to products that were a LOT LESS EXPENSIVE, are more versatile, and will still use less power than what you just wasted $5,800.00 on. Yeah, I guess your theatre has money to burn. For that exact same money, you could have STILL gotten a lot more fixtures, a better controller and more. BUT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO SPEND ANYWHERE NEAR $5,800 TO GET MORE FIXTURES WITH BETTER CONTROL.

Oh, here's the kicker. Your "$75.00 fixtures" ended up costing you $725.00 EACH!! Yeah, you really saved a lot of money there.

And you still have the expenses of rigging a safe truss system.

Oh, and by the way, your so-called expert's webpage sells Chauvet lighting equipment, so your friend uses/sells the EXACT SAME equipment I suggested.

I can't deal with this any longer.

[John Eickhof]

Geeze, with all the good practical advice passed on here...the av service must be providing the Vaseline!

[Bill Seipel]

So, let's consider a few facts again.

You started saying "Our theater doesnt have those kinds of dollars."

We all give you less expensive options, and I spent (wasted) my time giving you direct links to products that were a LOT LESS EXPENSIVE, are more versatile, and will still use less power than what you just wasted $5,800.00 on. Yeah, I guess your theatre has money to burn. For that exact same money, you could have STILL gotten a lot more fixtures, a better controller and more. BUT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO SPEND ANYWHERE NEAR $5,800 TO GET MORE FIXTURES WITH BETTER CONTROL.

Oh, here's the kicker. Your "$75.00 fixtures" ended up costing you $725.00 EACH!! Yeah, you really saved a lot of money there.

And you still have the expenses of rigging a safe truss system.

Oh, and by the way, your so-called expert's webpage sells Chauvet lighting equipment, so your friend uses/sells the EXACT SAME equipment I suggested.

I can't deal with this any longer.

I did not take your advice. I don't know how to tell you to manage your own feelings.

The theater didn't spend any money on this. I'm donating my own money.

I did save money when you compare the cost of new LED ETC fixtures. I saved thousands.

My expert (and he is one) sells Chauvet likely because its a popular brand that has some nice pieces. Does he use them? No. His reasons are his own.

I honestly appreciate all the advice on this forum.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

LOL! I feel like I just watched an.episode of "The Twilight Zone"! Ya'll are nuts!

[Randy Stankey]

When I go to each respective website, ETC vs. Chauvet, what do I see?

At the Chauvet website, I see lots of pretty pictures of people dancing on stage under bright lights but, in order to see the actual light fixtures, I have to scroll down the page.

At the ETC website, there are pictures of the light fixtures right at the top of the page. There are nice pictures of people, too, but they come after the product pictures.

That tells me a lot about how the people at each company think.

How many times have you walked up to the box office at a movie theater, looked at a movie poster with great-looking graphics and compelling titles only to watch the movie and think that, for all the smoke and mirrors, it really wasn't that good of a show?

My impression of ETC vs. Chauvet is much the same.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Geeze, with all the good practical advice passed on here...the av service must be providing the Vaseline!

John, It appears they ran out of vaseline.... But I'd still go for the 4 light Strand deal @ $1700 if they are the correct type of fixtures... That's only $425 a fixture for brand new.

[John Eickhof]

yup, i'm with you...it's kinda like the research and study costs have out done the actual cost of the project! ie: too much knowledge is dangerous! Thank goodness he's not spending my money!