Dolby Atmos / 7.1 combo

[Erik Olsen]

I Emailed the distributor of FF9 and asked if they could transfer the 7.1 / Atmos combo version of FF9 to me.
And they still insists that the FF9 and A quiet place 2 is only 5.1 or Atmos.

So I went to the cinema at the next town as they have one screen with Atmos and the rest is 7.1 so they get both versions. We tried to play the 7.1 / Atmos combo version of Quiet place in a 7.1 only screen. And of course we got sound. We did not check if it was actually 7.1 sound, but thats pretty much a given as the file is a 7.1 / Atmos combo.

I then sent a new e-mail asking what kind of sound I got when I played the 7.1 / Atmos combo file in a 7.1 non-Atmos screen. (Remember, they first said that the combo file would only play in Atmos certified theaters and would not play in a 7.1 screen)
They never replied. I guess they don't want to deal with a rebel projectionist at a very small theater.

But I do find It kind of interesting. Why don't the distributor want the cinemas to play the best version available?
And I do feel a little sad that I can not give my audience the better version. They sent me the subtitle 7.1 VF and the 7.1 KDM, but not the 7.1 sound file. :-(

Regards,
Erik

[Stefan Scholz]

Erik, you may remember the times, when movies were based on film, and we had digital sound on them. Some distributors did not want to discuss the fact you might eventually need the DTS disks, or SRD did not. The returned to their point, that all contracted is com optical, which could be a Mono track in analog. And that being all they have to offer. No warranty on the quality tracks- basicly your question asked, was something the person on the other end does not understand or even ever thought about.
I understand, in rare cases a distributor might be wanting to chargemore for better sound. But that is a wrong approach, within the hgome distribution media all sound track formats are supported, be it Atmos, DTSx, Lossless HD 7.1, or whatever. At no extra charge.

[Carsten Kurz]

The stupidity is - if they only deliver the 7.1+ATMOS combo to ATMOS houses, the actual 7.1 mix is never heard, because it is silent during ATMOS playback. So, the 7.1 mix would simply be wasted.

We never have that issue here in germany. We usually get a plain 7.1 mix if 7.1 is available, and sometimes we get an ATMOS+7.1 VF and play that on our 7.1 system.

[Carsten Kurz]

I brought this issue up on today's ISDCF meeting and someone participating contacted me about details, maybe she can help. I directed her towards this discussion.

[Jarod Reddig]

That’s a shame, as Atmos at it core has bed channels of 7.1. With even the cheapest of 7.1 capable residential electronics it’s designed to revert Atmos to 7.1. My friends $150 Walmart “speakers and AVR in a box” even does this. Why is this not a thing with DCI?

[Steve Guttag]

An Atmos system (cinema) will revert to its non-Atmos tracks if something is amiss with the Atmos stream.

What I find amazing is that we don't have meta data that ensures EVERY format on every screen automatically configures itself. That is, the server and projectors and sound systems define what they can handle and then, given the best possible formats of each, the system just loads that version and goes. There shouldn't be Flat/Scope mixups or incorrect sound formats used. What a Dolby Atmos processor doesn't do on its own is choose to use the 5.1 or 7.1 decoder...you have to tell it (cue it) what the appropriate backup track is.

[Jarod Reddig]

Yes but a 7.1 system fed Atmos should simply play the 7.1 track, not revert to 5.1 or rely on a cue. Metadata would fix this yes.

[Carsten Kurz]

The trouble is we have legacy systems in the field, and suboptimal audio wiring/routing. With SMPTE DCP, you could have all versions including 5.1,7.1, ATMOS and dbox for one language in a single CPL. Unfortunately, full SMPTE spec came to late. Now it would be a nightmare to do that.

[Frank Cox]

How do big stadiums avoid the "kung fu movie" effect for people sitting in the seats way off in the next universe? Wouldn't the sound be a beat behind the performance on the stage?

[Steve Guttag]

Nah, I don't buy that. The version file system is fine in that only the particular pieces are in the version file. So yeah, if you have an older system, it will be a bit more manual than a newer one...like for everything else. And, quite frankly, there was no excuse for why metadata wasn't used, from the get-go to define versions. It isn't like consumers didn't have that technology back then. For sure, any version 2 and beyond should be fully automatic.

As for big stadiums and other incredibly large venues (not traditional cinemas), you have tools now like being able to change the lip sync to have the DCP in advance for audio and then, if need be (due to the depth of the venue and where seats are) delay the near seating audio feeds to get the lip sync right for them. If you think you are going to be able to blast, from a single source 500+ feet and not deafen the people near if the people far can get worthwhile audio, you are mistaken. You are likely going to be using line arrays and fills to accomplish the super-huge.

I remember working a film system designed by BLS for Wolf-Trap where there is a lawn area and a normal seating area (Wolf-Trap is an outdoor sort of theatre but with a large covering for the normal seating). It was a silent film with a live orchestra providing the music. We actually had a dubber who's job was to keep the conductor in sync with the movie. For the people out on the lawn (100s of feet away from the orchestra), the film was actually projected a few frame behind (two sets of projectors, two screens) so that the sound arrived at the right time for the picture. It's all in the planning and what tools one has available.

[Carsten Kurz]

In large installations, they often use multiple speaker sets with delay lines matched to the distance. If there's an LED screen, it will usually have a visual delay anyway (digital camera, processing), so it's possible to get a decent sync between what people see and hear. Not that anyone really expects HIFI sound in a stadium?!


Steve - SMPTE DCP has metadata and variable routing. But they decided to continue using wild track format with the same static Interop channel assignment for obvious reasons. They can't force server manufacturers (some out of business for years) and integrators to implement variable routing for servers and installations in the field. It took 10 years to get a minimum SMPTE dialect standardised that had just enough features to not break something important.