The permanently attached Barco ICP battery

[Bob Ezra]

I've been following this thread and now I'm confused and concerned.
I have a Barco DP2K-12C installed 9/2013.
The battery in the ICP has never been changed. Is there any service/maintenance that can be done to prevent battery failure and loss of cert?
Thanks

[Carsten Kurz]

There have already been a lot of discussions about this topic, both on the old and new forum. I suggest you try the search function with 'ICP battery'.

Two examples:

http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f16/t003789.html

http://www.film-tech.com/vbb/forum/m...ries-depleting


There are two batteries on every ICP. One shortlived that is socketed, it keeps a clock running. If it fails, no problem, just swap the battery.
Next to it is a similar soldered in cell. It keeps the certificate. It will usually live for something like 10-15 years. When it is depleted, the ICP cert will be lost and as of now, there is no way to revive the ICP board. You need to buy a new one. It's best to have a tech measure the cert cell voltage, but for a projector from late 2013, you should still be safe.

- Carsten

[Bob Ezra]

Carsten

much appreciated, a simple and concise answer . I feel better already

[Marcel Birgelen]

Unfortunately, the (metaphorical, obviously - I don't mean the literal one) definition of a wanker is someone who does not practice any sort of common sense, and almost considers it a badge of honor to refuse to do what common sense suggests in any given situation. This mindset goes beyond simple not caring: it holds that the wanker knows better than whoever put the warning sign up. Wasn't it Churchill who made a comment to the effect that improvements in idiotproofing inspire idiots to upskill themselves? Can't remember the exact quote, but that is the gist of it.

I've "modernized" the quote to be a better fit. Sorry Stephen... may your soul radiate from the other side of the event horizon..

When something is made wanker proof, they will just make better wankers.
-- Winston Hawking

I believe in the effectiveness of natural selection though... Eventually, a sufficiently evolved wanker may meet his fate beyond that High Voltage sign that wasn't mere decoration.

The problem is that the "this board has to be changed" moment is not accepted by the customer as having arrived until the board has failed, at which point the thing is basura anyways. Last week I had a call about a DP2K-20C manufactured in July 2010 that, per our records, still has its original ICP. The problem with that projector is that the SMPS has failed, but after checking our records I suggested to the end user that they may wish to replace the ICP as well, pre-emptively, because it can't have long to go. "Heyllllll, no!" was the gist of their response upon being told the price of a new ICP. Their existing one still works, and they'll continue to use it until it breaks. Once that happens, it's useless for any battery replacement experimentation.

I guess some amount of sticker shock is to be expected once people learn about the replacement pricing of those ICPs. The simple fact that the failure of a component with a replacement value of a few cents will result in irreparable "damage" of a few thousand grand is hard to explain to anybody and it probably crosses from legal into illegal territory, at least over here in the E.U.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

It really should be possible to replace it. Connect an external supply across the existing battery, but a little further down the traces. Isolate that external supply with a diode. Use an isolated soldering iron and remove the old and install the new. Disconnect the external supply and you should have a still working ICP.

[Marcel Birgelen]

It really should be possible to replace it. Connect an external supply across the existing battery, but a little further down the traces. Isolate that external supply with a diode. Use an isolated soldering iron and remove the old and install the new. Disconnect the external supply and you should have a still working ICP.

Yep, it should be. The problem is, who's are you going to borrow to perform the open heart surgery?

Has anybody actually done a successful replacement?

We're slowly starting to look for a replacement for our own DP4K-23B somewhere around next year. Still, I'd rather trade-in the machine as a working unit, rather than to offer up the ICP for Frankensteinian experimentation.

[Carsten Kurz]

Well it's very easy - you don't do it as long as it is not necessary. When the cell voltage drops below 2.6 volts, the incentive to do it comes automatically.
If it's a client who does not feel urged by your explanation - it will be his very own problem shortly.

[Marcel Birgelen]

5uykhv.jpg

[Carsten Kurz]

One button misses a timer that is running out within a few seconds ;-)
Essentially, it's a 'red or blue wire' decision in slo-mo.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

One could try it on a damaged board. I had one a few years ago, where the drive in had a nearby lightening strike. The board still booted up, but something was scrambled... most likely the Cert. It could not be repaired with the usual software app, so I replaced it. That board floated around my shop for some time till I finally tossed it... way before these ICP threads appeared.

[Marin Zorica]

When I had to replace battery on dolphin board i said that there is possibility that board will. Be dead, because some colegues did all by the manual but still cert was lost, old boards had bad battery to hold for minute while replacing. Other thing was to replace while server is running. But that is something if is going to be dead after, you can always claim you did by the book (manual) and that owner takes costs of new board, which are obsolete now... As for icp, since there is no procedure or manual it diy trick, and i doubt any owner will tell ok board is dead, no problem here is euro 4300 for new one, probably they will take to probe you are wrong for malfunction and asked for replacement.

[Leo Enticknap]

That's the problem, alright. If you tell a customer that a working component that would cost in the mid-four figures to replace will break on its own in the near future, unless you do an experiment on it that could break it here and now, the response from that customer is likely to be skeptical.

At least with the Barco ICMP, you will have the low battery warning message for use as evidence if the customer asks for it.

[Mark Hathaway]

Does anyone have any firm confirmation on the battery voltage threshold where the cert is wiped and fips lock is engaged?

I have some dead boards I’ll investigate the pcb layout looking for the battery lines.

mass ICP failure over here in Australia will be crippling for exhibitors, they are already on their knees. Most projectors are entering their 9th year. Getting in front of this proactively is the answer, especially when one asks the vendors to comment on ICP and ICP-X availability off the record. Lead tiles are insane still.

[Carsten Kurz]

We are pretty sure now that around 2.5 volts the ICP will die. I would definitely start the open heart surgery when the cell measures at around 2.6 volts. It is easy and safe to measure that cell during a regular maintenance or simple board reseat. All you need is a basic modern digital multimeter (and the knowledge how to handle it properly).

Regarding the circuit, we have found out all that is necessary/possible in this thread:

http://www.film-tech.com/vbb/forum/m...ries-depleting

Go through it, look at the pictures, prepare. Start a 'measuring campaign' to get an idea what to expect. The life span of these cells under variable operating conditions is very different. It may be that boards with the same manufacturing date are many years apart practically when it comes to remaining cert battery voltage. Only take the risk of a cell swap when you have measured the voltage to be close to the end.

I would also encourage you to connect to the thread I linked to above, so that as much information as possible is collected in that single thread.

[Randy Stankey]

I think the dual battery holder idea would work IF the contacts in the battery holder and on the battery were gold plated.

After reading back on this thread, there's something I'd like to add.

I worked in a plating shop for two years where I learned that most items that are gold plated are underplated with nickel and/or silver and the top layer of gold is only between 50 to 100 micro-inches thick. (In fact, most mil-specs require gold plating to be LESS THAN 100 µ-in. thick)

Of course, the gold provides good corrosion resistance but don't think that it is some kind of magic bullet. The conductivity of gold plating is only as good as the material that's underneath. Besides, unless you are using silver plated, copper wire in the rest of your circuits, that gold isn't going to make them better.

After corrosion, the only other benefit that gold gives you is better contact. The softer gold deforms when contacts are mated together, making sure that there are fewer microscopic gaps between mating surfaces.

The place where I work uses gold contacts, almost exclusively. Even the engineers would go around extolling the virtues of gold until, one day, I used an Exacto knife to scrape off a patch of gold to show him the nickel underplating then scraped off the nickel to show him the copper base metal underneath.

Yes, I agree that gold is better but it ain't unicorn dust.