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I have a customer asking about having their existing JNIOR control their 15 yr-old Crestron lighting system. The system uses CNX B6 control pads connected to a CLS-C6W panel. Are any of you guys familiar with this panel? He's a 2-screen non-profit and I am wondering if it would be something easy for him to accomplish.
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In my experience, any automation involving Crestron hardware has to be done by a certified Crestron programmer. The only scenario in which it might not is if there are already ASCII commands programmed into it that can be received by RS232 or IP, or GPIs set up. If so, it's just a case of having the JNIOR send those commands or operating the necessary momentary or latched contact closures. Was it previously controlled by any other automation device, or just manually, by pushing buttons on the actual unit? -
Not surprising that Crestron still hasn't responded to this gentleman. He has just 2 screens. One is Kneisley and has been working under JNIOR control for some time. There is some frustration that they have never gotten the Crestron system in the one theater to play along.
He has CNX-B6 keypads which look to me to be a proprietary peripheral to the Crestron controller. He just wants to hit two buttons to run his sconces ON & OFF. It has not been automated in the past. So there are no existing automation inputs that we know of.
We'll probably end up tapping wires across the switches so we can pulse a relay and it'll think someone pushed the switch. The system has been there for 15 years. He's not worried about warranty I am guessing. It would just be nice to not have to do something so custom. And, you know, we won't charge him a dime. He even has old 310s.
Maybe Crestron will surprise us assuming they do get back to him.
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That system only uses crestron CRESNET protocol to have connection between keyboard and control unit, plus there are no GPIO on unit. So, you could do two things, one is to get some crestron controlled which is also having cresnet and ethernet so you can have that as "gateway" to system and just made some tcp or udp commands to be sent, but that is pricy solution, because you need something like rmc4 or similar controller, plus to know programm it. Next, since controller possibility of IR remote, you could get some IR codes and try to send commands from server via ethernet or serial to some ethernet(serial) to IR device, that should work, but you need original IR remote to be configured and to know codes, cheaper and simplier solution than first, but still to spend some money and time!
And last, you can open keyboard, solder wires in paralel to buttons you want to use and use some free relays on JNIOR to send pulse to activate it and it will work just as you press the button, plus it will also work in parallel in same time from server or manual on keyboard.Comment
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An IP2IR-type device to which the JNIOR sends commands, per Marin's suggestion, is likely the most elegant solution, IMHO.
I encounter situations like this a lot, when we are installing DCI equipment as a subcontractor to a main AV contractor, and or upgrading it years after the initial installation. Integration and automation was almost always done using a Crestron system. If, for example, you replace an NEC with a Barco, it has to be reprogrammed, and that means a bare minimum of a grand to $1,500 hiring a Crestron programmer to do it. The barriers to entry for becoming a certified Crestron programmer are formidable: the training is very lengthy and very expensive. I looked in to it once. It's almost as much of a commitment as doing a part-time master's degree. This is in stark contrast to Q-Sys, on which it is entirely possible to self-train yourself using online videos and resources, and at no cost (other than that of your time). Yet for some reason, the big boy/girl AV intergrators seem wedded to Crestron. I would always advise steering clear of anything Crestron for new projects, because of the limited supply and relatively high cost of the labor to create and maintain the programming.Comment
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I agree with Leo, for the most part here. We have a partner that is particularly good with Crestron so, when Crestron is called for, we have a built-in solution. I'm not saying it will always be cheap because yes, those people make a living by charging for Crestron programming too. That said, our Crestron control systems seem to outlive most others as well. Having them go in excess of 20-years and still be viable is starting to be common for us too. It all depends on how custom one needs something.
I did a recent system where we supplied Q-SYS for sound and a little bit of control (mostly Video). Another contractor provided the traditional A/V and used Crestron, including Crestron lighting. They did provide a lighting system that provided contact closure inputs to recall presets and that is how we interfaced (using an eCNA automation but the JNIOR would be as effective). If the system has no contact closure inputs, a common refrain I hear on Q-SYS groups is to just get a baby Crestron controller as a go-between for Crestron products (for a company that likes to control everyone else's things, they sure don't want ANYONE else controlling theirs!) Likely, there is is an I/O interface that could be added or an RS232 port that could be utilized, if one could have the system programmed for a reasonable cost. It does help when the Crestron programming people are partners rather than advisories. When we added DCinema to a traditional film venue, we kept the I/O deliberately generic so if things did change, the commands would not have to be changed.Comment
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Marin...
The plan is to tap the back of the keypad switches like you suggest. Since they are momentary it should be a simple thing with relays set to pulse. We're going to wait to confirm that Crestron makes every other option unattractive. I also want to see his spare keypad to make sure that the modification can be done cleanly and professionally. But I described this to him and maybe he as a handy tech nearby.
Leo...
Carsten also suggested once before that we create some generic IR solution allowing JNIOR to fire off remote control codes. The downside of that though is that the JNIOR wouldn't have a way to know that the codes were successful. Not that this approach would necessarily be completely unreliable. It can be done but short of me farting around with my home theater we are just waiting to do that to actually gratify a customer.
Steve's comment "for a company that likes to control everyone else's things, they sure don't want ANYONE else controlling theirs!" is revealing and not surprising. A large company with lots of investors (public or otherwise) has a focus that doesn't include satisfying customers. Not unless the customers have deep pockets and get off on spending money. But somehow people feel like they need to pay a lot initially as that will somehow guarantee service and support later. It does but, I think, you keep paying a lot. They want you to do that over and over.
All we care about here are satisfied customers. Correct me if I am wrong. Has anyone paid for support or for us to make custom changes, work closely with you to get things working the way you want, etc.? It's why nobody is getting rich here and all we really worry about is stopping to get beer on the way home. We haven't even raised prices in the face of all of this crap. Hmm. Well, I might not be able to boast about that point too much longer. Sadly,
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Got the customer's spare CNX-B6 keypad to see how we could attach wires from external relays. It is not as straight forward to do as we had hoped. The keypad uses a conductive rubber overlay and the PIC processor scans the switches in a 2 x 3 matrix. It looks like I can tack wires to the 2 column circuits and the 3 row circuits and bring out a total of 5 wires that can be wired to relays. Then by pulsing a relay he can momentarily connect the right row and column leads to activate the desired switch.
What would be nice, and there is no chance I know, would be for Crestron to provide the protocol for their little RS-485 network. They won't of course, crying proprietary and thinking that they would prefer to sell the customer new automation. The reality is that there is probably no one that you could find there that knows where the protocol is documented and if it is at all. And even then I bet they wouldn't want to release it because the engineers never documented for anyone else to understand and they would be afraid that it is stupid and embarrassing in several ways. Perhaps too they copied it from another company and fear patent infringement and licensing concerns. We can't expect them to do something to help their population of CNX users by allowing the lowly JNIOR to join in the network fun. The customer never got to converse with anyone past their automated facade. He doesn't want to replace systems just to accomplish a simple bit of automation.
So as a result civilization does not benefit.
This keypad wasn't inexpensive to manufacture. It has nice back-lighting and a separate red indicator for each switch. Internally there is a temperature sensor and a speaker for (I think) beeps. Not sure if the processor generates the tones. I am not going to power this keypad up not having the Crestron panel. If I did then we would look into that protocol.
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Somewhere on one of my older computers I have a list of RS232 command strings that I had set up in a program to talk to a Crestron from an AMX system. It controlled masking stops, curtains and lighting that the Crestron translated to another type of lighting system.
That list was sent to me by a Crestron programmer that my colleague and I worked with on many projects.
I have no idea if that same series of commands would work with Bruce's particular client, but I wonder if the ones I have are "standard" in the Crestron universe....
I do know that AMX was pretty cooperative with me as a Newbie programmer, they allowed me full access (or AXXCESS lol) to all the software and firmware I needed for all of my projects, despite not being a "Certified" AMX programmer. THe only thing they denied me was dealer pricing or purchasing of hardware.
Crestron on the other hand is an extremely difficult company (Cult?) to deal with. And they have a very clueless (or wicked sense of humor) staff when it comes to naming products...for example: (And yes it is real, and not a Photoshopped image) : (Edited to add; I used to irritate the hell out of that same colleague by asking for this part using the name said as one would would expect to hear it out loud.)
master_photo_a-cntblock.jpeg
https://www.crestron.com/Products/Control-Hardware-Software/Hardware/Distribution-Devices/CNTBLOCK
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I "cracked" the HD-XSP commands by merely using wire shark as Crestron's own "Toolbox" would talk to it. I got enough of the commands (and human readable too!) and I know nothing about how to use wireshark!
I'd think it would be worth a try to do something similar with the RS485 port to see what commands Crestron is sending to it and mimic it, if need be.Comment
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I'll tack wires in this spare CNX pad and send it on back to the customer to see if this gets the job done for him. He has Series 3 JNIORs. If he gets a 410 then we can set that up to snoop the RS-485. The 310s don't have the tools for that. I would be interesting but I'm hoping we don't need to. We're not 100% certain that this spare keypad was functional to begin with.Originally posted by Steve Guttag View Post
This is not a huge issue... we're just trying to help out a customer.
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Well... I had tapped the keypad. We then find out that he needs the Crestron super secret magic software to add the keypad to his system. That sword can only be wielded by the Crestron certified wizard who is a half day away by road. Hmm.
Before we start snooping on their little network we're going to look over the system installation to see if there are any other options. I haven't obtained any of the behind the scenes detail for that little network.
We could kludge a keypad that is already part of the system but I'm not recommending taking the risk.
Not my best soldering. The keypad is managed in a 2 X 3 matrix. So with 5 wires and external relays he could have activated any button. Oh well.
It's just a challenge now.
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Damn.. I was about to say that if you can set the keypad address to the same as the other one used in the system already (and swap the pads) you wouldn't need to have a programmer touch anything. Were there any dip switches on that keypad? I don't see any in your pics. (If there are switches, you can try it again, just set this modified pad to the same address as the in-use one and swap them out.) I can't remember if the older CresNet hardware also had dip switches or not...Originally posted by Bruce Cloutier View Post
Sorry to sound like Mark here, but AMX (at least the older AXcess hardware) used simple dip switches to set addresses, so replacing a faulty device required NO program changes or access, you just had to match the address to the failed device. AT worst case, a reboot of the master controller was needed to rescan the Axlink to find the replaced device.
As for you modifying the original keypad, if I were you I would go ahead and do it. You are fully capable of doing it safely, and with simple anti-static precautions it would be no big deal. (I see nothing bad with your soldering either.)
P.S. Still looking for those commands, next time I am at my storage unit I can pull the drive with the file on it.Comment
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Yeah. No DIP switches for address settings. I shouldn't complain because we also avoided using the DIP switches with our expansion modules. But... we don't have proprietary locked up software and don't consider customers to be inept.
The assembly was glued shut - no user serviceable parts inside I guess. There are two boards. The second has the RS-485 drivers, power supply circuits and a driver for a speaker. I don't know. It seemed to be a bit over-designed for what it had to do. We figured that this was the core design for the whole range of keypads. The PIC processor already has Flash and yet they had to include an additional external Flash for some reason. The other 2 chips are external 8-bit latches. On the back of that board there is a temperature sensor and LED illumination/indicators along with the landings for a conductive rubber keypad.
He's out in the middle of Maine and we're here outside of Pittsburgh. He has Series 3 JNIORs which are fine. If he had a 410 we could remotely snoop on that keypad network. Just a pain. We were just trying to be helpful.
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This is where we are headed with this. The customer will be upgrading the 310 to a 410 with an upcoming projector replacement. We will then tap the RS-485 through the AUX port and remotely snoop.Originally posted by Steve Guttag View Post
If anyone has any hints to pass along it will be appreciated. It might go without saying for those who know us but we don't charge for this stuff (no grumpy investors here). So if you can help its a feather in all of our hats.
If you have access to a similar system, it would help just to know what baud rate we are looking at to start. I will try to do a deep search for communications examples and specs.
But, presently, it is taking all of my energy just to keep the flow of JNIORs going. From an electronics manufacturing point of view the current situation is a disaster. It took a couple of weeks but we have managed to join the Renesas 2023 allocation program for processors. This is the one component that I cannot design around without, basically, starting over. We're in the program but that hasn't yet told me when we will get chips, how many, and at what cost.
Thank god for good whiskey.
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