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  • #16
    If one looks at Barco's history on maintaining parts supply on discontinued projectors, it has been quite good. How long did they support the DP100 past its discontinuation? It was pretty close to if not 10-years. The wild card in all of the long-term parts support is the effects of C19 and the supply chain combined with chip shortages/plant burning down that has allowed/caused early obsolescence of various chips/semiconductors. How much investment will a company make to overcome part inavailability?

    Christie is the one that scares me on parts. Even before C19, getting a 3-month lead time on a critical part (standby supply, PIB, TPC or even the IMB S2) was not unheard of and even semi-common. The standby supply one can overcome with a little effort. Try to roll your own PIB! Barco/Cinionic, of the big three, is a 24/7 company. I've NEVER not been able to get a part fast...and that includes in a C19 world. And, by fast, I mean same day/next day...weekends/holidays included. Yes, normal parts orders are, typically a 2-week lead time from Belgium. Okay...those are normal parts orders. At least you know that is the typical lead time. Every once in a while you get a longer lead time. When you are down and move into the expedited class, there are depots all over where the parts can get to you fast. Yes, it cost more in shipping (and I don't think unreasonably so), but you WILL be back up that day or the next. Seriously, I had a switch mode power supply (LVPS in some circles) go down at opening...by 4:00pm, the replacement came walking in the door and they didn't miss their evening shows (it was on a Friday too). That sort of support is worth something.

    As for light engines, Cinionic does have an RX system now for those though I wouldn't call it very cost conscious. The other two are significantly cheaper on many parts and similar programs (though for NEC, I believe it is just Strong that does the clean and repair of prisms...that is where we source them and they always supply good ones though your backfocus may be WAY off). NEC will also let one change just the formatter, which can be cheaper than even the prism swap.

    I agree that Barco and Christie are notably better on their S2 4K (or S2K) images. NEC has very low contrast and also very low light output/watt (about 20% less than Barco or Christie). That said, NEC's 1200-2000 and even the 3200/3240 are very solid performers in terms of reliability. Early 1200-2000 had some LPS issues...early ones had some router issues and early ones had the dreaded power switch issues. But, overall, NEC has the fewest problems/per unit of the systems we service. NEC, typically, has a greater degree of granularity of parts offered. Barco is very much into modules/assemblies...so the parts price disparity is even greater there. NEC's .69" lenses and their lens mounts have horrible motorized resolutions so they never come back to the same place twice so I would avoid them if you need to move the lens between formats. They are much better on the .98 and 1.2/1.38 DMD lenses.

    If it were me, I probably would not use xenon in a commercial cinema, going forward though I think xenon looks notably better. It's the economics of it all. Laser is, now, typically, cheaper on day-1 and cheaper every day thereafter...right down to not needing an exhaust. That said, once you do consume your lasers (fade down), that will be an expensive repair that will likely be a substantial portion of a new projector. And if laser-phosphor, factor in changing that too. NEC has a novel ideal on their "ML" series lasers (those with the suffix ML)...the rear portion with the lasers and phosphor wheel is exchangeable. So, once you consume the lasers, you RX just that portion and do not have a tech go in there and change out the laser modules or phosphor wheel assemblies. The ML series is available in 2K and 4K.

    As to targets with all of the ratios (like Christie's Framing V2 or words to that effect)...meh. What I've taken to doing is I have screen files with those ratios already done. So, I load the screen file for the ratio I'm working on...immediately save it under a different name on that projector and merely trim for keystone (curve pincushion). The screen file lets me zoom, center, trim with any target to focus and full white...it goes pretty fast.

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    • #17
      Well there we are. Steve puts the case fairly and comprehensively as he always does. There's something in there for everyone. Someone has some shopping to do.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Dave Macaulay View Post
        We had an exchange prism for an NC2000. The problem was very visible looking into the prism face lit from the front but moreso with a phone flashlight from the rear.
        The exchange one was fine, all image discoloring gone.
        The prism came clamped in a cage, just the prism. It's not a trivial job to take one out of the projector's prism mount and worse to put one back in. The wiring, cooling plates, hoses, thermistors, etc have to be put on exactly right.
        Not only all that stuff you mentioned Dave.... But the securing screws for all critical parts of the light engine are supposed to be torqued to the proper amount. You can find out those specs from either NEC or Strong. I had the torque kit shown below. It's about $300 from Graingers.
        You do not have permission to view this gallery.
        This gallery has 1 photos.

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        • #19
          Well I was thinking this might be a slow creeping death, but it's looking more like a late stage cancer at this point. The picture I posted on the top was from 8 days ago, and here is one from today. Even the parts that are still white don't look like a brilliant white, it's more like an off-white. Ugh.
          IMG_4218.jpg

          The worst part of this is, I'm working on a grant from the Rural Energy for America Program which would pay for part of the cost of a laser machine (due to its energy efficiency) but I wouldn't be allowed to "incur costs" until the grant application forms are in and acknowledged as "complete." We all know how rapidly the government moves. So now it's down to a decision whether to do a short term fix or not. I just hate the thought of going through the rest of the summer "blockbuster season" with this shitty picture.​

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          • #20
            It's always easy to spend the other guy's money of course, but if it was me in that position I would look at the cost of renting a projector to tide me over until I could get that grant approved.

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            • #21
              The gotcha there is that the cost of shipping and installation (plus the same in reverse at the end of the rental) to a relatively remote location in rural Montana would be likely, I would guess, to at least double the price of the rental. If Mike feels comfortable installing it himself, that would reduce the overheads significantly, though. I'm wondering if it would be possible to tweak the color calibration to offset the prism discoloration a bit, as an emergency short-term measure. You'd need a photoradiometer, though.

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              • #22
                Yeah, it's really bummer if something like this happens. But when does equipment fail exactly at the right time?

                If it's progressing this fast, I do think it's more a case of prism disintegration than a case of prism surface contamination. Not that this diagnosis is in anyway helpful to get rid of the problem, but it may be a sign of things to come to other projectors with the same prism assembly and of equal vintage.

                As for the color calibration emergency hack Leo is suggesting: I think the problem here is the unequal way this issue presents itself over the frame. If you fix it for one spot, it will be completely off in another.

                One thing you have to keep in mind if you're going to switch over to laser or any new machine is the lead times on new equipment. You really need to check this with your local integrator. Unless they have to happen exactly your model and lens on stock, it's not like you order today and have it tomorrow, especially in the current state of the world, were the supply chain seems to be constantly broken somewhere.

                As for rental options: It's hard to compare prices between here and your place, but judging on the DCI equipment rental prices that are common around here, it's probably cheaper to get a repair of your current unit than paying for a rental unit for months on end, depending on how long you have to wait for the paperwork to be finished and having the new machine delivered and installed.

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                • #23
                  One thing you have to keep in mind if you're going to switch over to laser or any new machine is the lead times on new equipment. You really need to check this with your local integrator.
                  Our tech is keeping track of a few models. We are looking at the Barco SP4K-15B at the moment. Apparently they are actually in stock. But replacing the light engine is also on the table, if the grant thing proves to take too long. I just hate to spend that kind of money on a 13 year old unit that might have something else go wrong in the short term.

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                  • #24
                    Such a progression of that issue in just 8 days... I am wondering if that is actually contamination or something else - a failed DMD I guess. I struggle to believe that contaminants can affect the picture so quickly.

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                    • #25
                      I think that picture wise, the SP4K-15B would be a great upgrade. The only downside is that you can't keep your Dolby 3D setup. Still, there are active shutter glasses now that are both dishwasher safe and pretty comfortable to wear and imho, they do give the best 3D out there, especially if you have a sufficiently bright picture.

                      The machine also comes also with "double marquee value": Laser AND 4K. (Although like stated earlier, the marquee value of 4K may be limited.)
                      So, I hope you can make it work somehow, without breaking the bank.

                      Originally posted by Marco Giustini View Post
                      Such a progression of that issue in just 8 days... I am wondering if that is actually contamination or something else - a failed DMD I guess. I struggle to believe that contaminants can affect the picture so quickly.
                      Like I indicated before, I've seen something similar once before. It was in a Christie machine that was brand new. It also had a faulty prism: in this case, the prism itself was disintegrating. The prism in your average DCI projector isn't a single piece of glass, but a composition of multiple pieces of coated glass that are bonded together. I don't know how they bond them together, but I suspect it will be some kind of epoxy. In this case, there was a production flaw that allowed those pieces to slowly separate. This caused a reddish hue all over the image, much like what Mike is currently experiencing. It progressed pretty fast, from just a small corner up to the entire image in a matter of a month or so. After that, the prism was replaced and everything was fine again.

                      This is all speculation on my part, but I could imagine that if they use some kind of epoxy or "glue", that prolonged exposure to heat, UV light, etc. could cause it to let loose over time. That's why this is an interesting case and it's a fairly old machine by DCI standards. With a sample rate of just one, it's certainly premature to raise any panic, but it could be a sign of things to come for projectors of similar vintage, if this is what I think it is.

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                      • #26
                        I will go out on a limb here and say it is definitely contamination as I have seen that exact same thing before and I pulled the prism and got down to where I could even see the liquid (seriously, it comes through the filter and that fan right above the prism is what is pumping the strained liquid contaminated air into the prism. The migration may seem like it is moving fast but remember, that prism is only .98" on the diagonal and we are being shown the 2.39 portion or the middle 3/4s or so. The magnification is so great, a little movement will seem like a lot. This also happened over a long time for it to make it this far but it is in there.

                        An advantage of the "B" series of the SP4K-15 is that it is on the 1.38" DMDs so the stuck pixel issue of the TRP DMDs won't be there (they can still stick but at "traditional" amounts). Be forewarned, the "B" Barcos in the SP4K are HUGE...so plan accordingly (seriously, with the lesn, it will be over 5-feet long). In the drawing below, I'm also depicting the optional exhaust adapters/dust covers. I use them as dust/spill covers. If one has exhaust, you can vent to the outdoors. However, they ship with the 8" (200mm) flange plugged so they can be used as dust/spill protectors. the top of the projectors have a rather porus grill for ventilation right above laser drivers and other heat producers. It is all too easy for something to come into the top of the unit. Installation of the adapters/covers does not interfere with the speed at which one can get into the unit for service. The feet location match up with their legacy DPxK-B series projectors:

                        SP4K-B.jpg

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                        • #27
                          Where can I find more info on the B series? Their website shows nothing about that nor does it reference C series. It's just the regular SP4K-x model numbers with the 0.98"

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                          • #28
                            SP4K-40

                            SP4K-55

                            The full range of Series 4 models can be seen here. What might have been confusing you is that in all territories except China, the model number does not have the B, C, or S suffix: it's just SPXK-[integer; references output in lumens]. But many techs still tend to refer to them with the suffixes, to be clear in our minds what form factor we're dealing with.

                            From the SP4K-27HC up, the 4K machines have the 1.38" DMDs.

                            As for the .98" DMDs, I'm told that TI has redesigned them, and that Barco is now shipping light engines with the new design, that is nothing like as susceptible to pixels sticking as the old one. I would suggest that anyone contemplating buying an SP4K-C (i.e. an SP4K-XX where XX is 25 or below) writes in to the sales contract with their dealer/integrator that either it has the new light engine in it, or that one will be installed at no extra cost as soon as it becomes available.
                            Last edited by Leo Enticknap; 06-01-2023, 08:05 AM.

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                            • #29
                              So if someone has an SP4K-12 built within the last 6 months with the original light engine, would Barco swap to the updated version for free before there's a problem? Or would they wait for stuck pixels and then replace for free if it's within warranty?

                              My other question is for a single screen theater, is it recommended to buy the extended warranty for this unit because of the high cost of replacement parts? Would the cost of the warranty be less than the cost of parts in a 10 year time period, for example?

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                              • #30
                                Darin, I cannot speak for Cinionic but I would suspect that they would not replace the light engine without a stuck pixels. For one, that would deprive those that have a stuck pixel from getting a replacement sooner. For singles (and really up to 5-plexes), definitely get the extended warranty. The money is just in your favor with the light engine, or ICP-D/ICMP...etc. Around 5-screens, the money starts to favor buying your own repair parts and getting light engines repaired.

                                Remember too, Cinionic includes standard overnight shipping (1-way) with their warranties.

                                I do not believe Leo's comments are correct on the state of the TRP chips, I do not believe that Barco (or anyone else) is shipping a redesign version yet.

                                The "C" and "B" series will continue to be a reference now that there are three overlapping versions. There Is an SP4K-15C and and SP4K-15B (likewise for the 20 and 25).
                                Last edited by Steve Guttag; 06-01-2023, 10:45 AM.

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