Laser Diods over heat, but rest of projector reports ok Temps.

[James Gardiner]

This one is interesting.

NC1100L, in use for 7+ years. Runs about 35% of full power. So not stressed at all.
Started to turn it self of due to overheating.

After doing a lot of tests. the ONLY telemetry indicating overheating is the laser diodes get to about 92c and it goes into a warning and then will power down. Everything else seems at normal levels.
Ran it all yesterday with the lamp on doing nothing else. not a problem. Temps looked normal.

Ran typical sessions (Tho not with patrons) today, and I can see the temps climbing again...
Driver temps all good. have not moved from expected levels. Diodes are all climbing. near 70c now.

Have just stopped it playing the test session, and left the laser on. See if that makes a difference. (Nothing yer after 30 min) Same temps.

Note: With and without filters. Has not made a difference. (As you would expect)

Environmental temps are good and at expected levels. Intake is 31c when on and 26c when in standby. Not unusual.

As you probably know, the NC1100L has a closed-loop liquid cooled. Expected to last the life of the projector.
One possible cause is the cooling loop liquid has gone bad? But then why do other components in the cooling loop still look ok?

Why could it have worked fine one day, and not the next?

Has anyone seen a problem like this, and if so, what was the remedy?

[Harold Hallikainen]

I'm not familiar with that projector at all, but in liquid cooled system, temperature rise between input and output is inversely proportional to the flow rate. Is it ok? Pumps and filters ok? Air bubble in the system?

[James Gardiner]

Was just talking to an engineer. The dedicated water cooling system is ONLY for the diodes. So it would indicate a fault in that cooling system.
Considering using Seringe to pull out a decent amount or water... Run for 30 mins.. do again 2 more tiles. TO flush out the system a bit to see if we can get back to viable levels.. But its all guess work really.

The Pump is reporting 100% normal speed. Not running slower due to possible clogging making it push harder. if bubbles possible periods of running faster or harder.
Pump.
Pump1 98%
Pump2 101%
of (4000rpm)

[Leo Enticknap]

Are the red diode banks cooled by a Peltier (thermoelectric cooling) device, as they are in Barco Series 4 projectors (and DMD blocks are in Series 2)? If so, could one of these have failed? If there is no coolant leak, that could explain why the pump is maxed out. The other is a blockage in the liquid cooling circuit, as you speculate, or a fault with the pump, whereby the software believes that it is running, but it is actually not moving any liquid (e.g. the failure of an internal seal).

I would suggest contacting SharpNEC: they have likely seen this before and will know what it is.

[Marco Giustini]

Indeed, I'm sure there is a procedure to flush that system and also to troubleshoot it further.

Be careful with what fluid you use to replace the existing one, I'd stick with what the manufacturer recommends.

[Steve Guttag]

Check out NEC (Sharp/NEC) Service Bulletin PJ-17-007-00-E. The NC1100L was known to have its coolant "gel" in the radiator. The original coolant was supposed to be replaced by a new coolant.

[James Gardiner]

So update on this.

The engineer went over the projector. Flushed the coolant... To no effect.
Suggestion, full laser module replacement of cooling system replacement. Both are expected to last the life-time of the projector. It is old, and getting these parts would be difficult... or the price on such parts, if available. are expected to be prohibitive. and the costs in doing the extensive replacement as it is a major tare down. In conclusion, the projector is no longer serviceable or worth fixing. Especially in this environment.

This is very disappointing and a major mark against NEC. The projector has been in use for 7 years, so well out of warranty, but it's in a pristine environment and running at only 33% of max power output.
Laser diodes read NO degradation whatsoever from use due to the low power and good environment.

I was EXPECTING up to 15 years of use for the projector considering the low stress level on the unit and the very clean conditions. I also priced that into the business model. Getting only 7 years. Is a major hit for that single-screen regional location. It was hopped the Laser would last a long time and require less service calls. Extremely expensive for regional locations. 7h drive each way (Australia is big)

Not impressed.

[Marcel Birgelen]

This is a hard pill to swallow for a single screen...

My personal advice, for what it's worth, for anything up to about 4 or 5 screens is to take the extended warranty on the gear. Write it off within that period and make sure you're prepared for the worst-case scenario afterwards. Real expectation would be around 10 to 12 years. If you don't invest in extended warranty, expect the first big-ticket item to hit you within 4 to 5 years. I think most exhibitors over here can tell you how they have been hit with major repair costs over the years. Eventually, something expensive will fail during the expected life of the machine, or you've been extremely lucky. It doesn't help that even an ICP replacement will set you back a few thousand bucks. Anything serious failing in those machines is automatically a multi-thousand dollar repair, be lucky if it remains within 4 digits.

If you go for 5 screens or more and you manage to keep the base model the same across all rooms (lamps and lenses can be swapped), then investing into an extra, cold-spare projector or at least reserving the cash for one "cold spare" projector for spare parts will start to make more sense than going for extended warranty.

Now with laser, there is an added risk. Around here, Cinionic/Barco still offers their 10-year output guarantee, but NEC and Christie do not, at least not without an extended service contract. I would only invest in laser if such an output guarantee for at least 8 years would be given, extended service warranty or not.

[Marco Giustini]

Since the system is not working anyways, maybe you can find a good engineer who can disassemble it further to try to actually found the fault?

If it's a cooling issue, it should be fixable. I appreciate NEC don't offer that service but maybe it's something doable. I am not familiar with the NEC cooling system at all: does the coolant flow? If not, find the blockage. If yes, maybe the heatsinks need new thermal compound? I know the NEC is not a video card but 100% of the second hand GPUs I've dealt with were overheating because of dried thermal compound. No idea if that could be the case there.

Peltier plates all working well?

Because it seems to be working at times, could it be a dodgy pump? Is there a way to see the coolant flow somehow - like in old Barco's where you could open the reservoir lid and see if there was coolant movement inside?

This reminds me Christie's engines getting dirty because of the LAD system. Official solution: new engine. Alternative solution (also offered by Christie service centres in some area of the world): disassemble the engine and clean it.

[James Gardiner]

The best NEC engineer in the country looked at it. Flushed the coolant. He indicated that the coolant that was removed was cristal clear, no sign of impurities or any type of corrosion particles in the coolant.
The Pump is running 100% normal. Indicating no blockage. And is considered not the problem either.

NEC Japan was consulted and stated that if after flushing the unit does not rectify the problem, a full cooling system replacement of laser module replacement would be needed. One or the other.

The NC1100 was not a product that lasted long, so I don;t expect them to have these spares anyway. It was only for sale for just under a year before it was replaced by the NC1201.

Also, its not well put together in terms of modularity, and pulling it down to the degree needed would be a huge puzzle to do especially to put it back together.

Those older projects are simply not made like the modular ones today where you usually pull out the module and replace it for a new/refurb, and the failed one goes back to be fixed by engineers who know exactly what they are doing as they likely build them every day. Removing the deeper knowledge needed by field engineers who do all the superficial install details. You simply cannot expect them to know how to correctly pull a projector down to the degree needed. They rarely if ever do it. It's a major reason the projector makers have moved to a module replacement strategy. It's more workable and cost-effective to support long-term.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Barco was the first who embraced the modular design philosophy, but this made the machines themselves more expensive. From all the machines out there, I'd still call the NEC machines the least modular, but over the years lots of field techs have learned to work their way through to the most usual suspect.

I've never seen an NC1100 up close and it indeed was a very short-lived model. What would annoy me is that, despite all the time and effort put into it, they still can't isolate the problem to a single possible problem and offer two paths forward. It's either one of the two and both are expensive, so the customer is left to guess which one to try first? And if that doesn't work, the customer is on the hook for yet another costly repair? I'd say NEC should be at least so forthcoming and offer some sort of a fixed price solution, with the possibility of sending back the item not needed after repairs. In the end, those machines are sufficiently expensive, you'd say the manufacturer shouldn't be able to weasel itself out of any responsibility if the thing they built fails before the end of the expected lifetime.

[Marco Giustini]

You simply cannot expect them to know how to correctly pull a projector down to the degree needed. They rarely if ever do it

Of course I don't but allow me to say I don't think you are getting my point.

What you have done is going through the official route. Flush, check sensors, involve the manufacturer. And that's the proper way, don't get me wrong. The outcome is "replace".

Let's compare this to Apple. Your MacBook Pro dies, you take it to Apple and they quote a new "logic board". $1200.

If you take it to Louis Rossman, he might find a capacitor is shorted, replace it and charge you $100. Apple don't do component repair. It doesn't mean there is no other route.

In your case, If the pump is spinning but the impeller is broken (I'm 100% speculating), you will have no error on the pump but you have no flow (does the NEC have a flow sensor?). Is there a way to actually check the flow, without just trusting a sensor which might only tell you that the electric motor is spinning?

NEC won't tell you how to fix the cooling system but since the projector is not working and the only official solution is to replace the whole laser assembly, maybe a good engineer (*) could try to take it apart and see if there is a chance to fix it. As Marcel said, it's shameful that NEC are not even offering a repair option. It's a laser assembly, not a space rocket. It should be fixable without too much fuss.

(*) I am not suggesting the involved engineer is not a good one

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

I will be addressing multiple parts of this individually: (Bolds added by me)

Removing the deeper knowledge needed by field engineers who do all the superficial install details.

Someone who only knows/does the "superficial install details" is NOT an engineer, he/she is an installer. Big difference there. My first (actually all) of my digital cinema projects, I was the INSTALLER. I called in the ENGINEER to follow up, do all of the alignments, color corrections, etc. AFTER I installed the equipment. In film, I confidently claimed to be an engineer as I could repair down to the component level ANY piece of film or sound equipment, with the exception of lenses.

{QUOTE]You simply cannot expect them (my addition: the engineer) to know how to correctly pull a projector down to the degree needed. /QUOTE]

And why not? In the film days a service tech was expected to know how to tear down a projector or sound head to replace individual gears, bearings, etc. In my service days I took the time and training to rebuild intermittents, and I always from the beginning did component level repairs on automations, dimmers and amplifiers, often in the field. Why should digital cinema get a pass? ANY field engineer worth their salt better be able to (even if they have never done it before) tear down enough to replace a cooling system or laser plate. Otherwise, why pay them to do anything? You had already surmised that the issue could be with the cooling system or laser assembly. So this "Best NEC engineer in the country" just cost you and your client money to state the blatantly obvious. which beings me to:

The best NEC engineer in the country...

If he is the best, why is he not trained and qualified to be able to tear down the projector deeper to give a definitive cause of the issue, rather than saying fire the parts cannon and hope something of the multiple (very) expensive parts will probably, maybe solve the problem? Second, I need to call out NEC for not providing the training to him on how to tear down that particular model, despite it being limited production (which makes training on it even more important.) Or maybe NEC did/does offer said training, and this "Best NEC engineer in the country" never bothered to take the courses.

Also, its not well put together in terms of modularity, and pulling it down to the degree needed would be a huge puzzle to do especially to put it back together.

Still not an excuse. Film projectors were never modular to a large degree, amplifiers never were (with the exception of one QSC model and a few other brands that didn't fare so well). EDITED to add: Yes, I am aware that there are newer models of amps that are modular, I am talking about the past years in the 80's-90's. A good engineer has the skill set to tackle that complexity, and get the answer to the problem. Will it take time? Yes. (Still the cost of that extra time will be FAR LESS than the cost of buying the wrong part in many cases.) Will there be some trial and error along the way? Yes. But it will prove to be valuable in many ways. First off, the customer can make an informed decision to further pursue repair, or scrap the projector. Second, the engineer will gain a valuable insight on how to tackle the complexity, which will increase his efficiency on later calls. A film parallel: my first rebuild of a Century projector head was a long, drawn out process, as I did not have the manual to show the proper steps in order. But my experience with that first one taught me how to do it faster and with a better end result, later confirmed when I had to do another which took less than half the time and came out running smoother and quieter. And all without ever finding the book. Third, it will save the guessing game and increase the odds of a successful repair, while lowering the end cost to the client.


Bottom line is this: There is a big difference between an Installer and an Engineer, and if you (or I) are paying for an engineer to evaluate a problem, they damn well better take the time to really tear down the projector (with a reasonable estimate or guesstimate of that time and cost presented to the client) to figure out WHAT is wrong, rather than firing the parts cannon hoping for a direct hit.

Marco summed it up best in his post just above mine.

NEC won't tell you how to fix the cooling system but since the projector is not working and the only official solution is to replace the whole laser assembly, maybe a good engineer (*) could try to take it apart and see if there is a chance to fix it. (*) I am not suggesting the involved engineer is not a good one

Since my GAF* is broken, I'll come right out and say it, if it wasn't obvious from all of the above: I don't think that "engineer" was very good, much less the best. If he is the best, I'd hate to see what the average one is like.


*(Give A Fuck)

[James Gardiner]

Sorry Tony, but it is simply not viable to have an integrator that has on site "installers" that know how to pull every bit of kit they touch down to the component level.
Its simply not a viable profitable way to operate an Integrator. Its not commercial. If it is not commercial, it goes away.
That is WHY the projector makers have gone down the modular approach. Training the staff to the degree needed so they MAY have the need to pull down one of 8 different types of projectors they may service is simply not viable. Training them all to that degree would cost a huge amount, and they are also the type of staff that turnover.

Also, unless an engineer has pulled apart complex devices like this regularly, its like asking a person who has read the manual on how to pull apart a plain engine and then goes and pulls apart his first engine with no help, based on this manual and put it back together.. Do you think it is safe? Considering he has only had that much experience with that engineering task? I don't.

Come on Tony, there is no way to have an engineer who has never pulled such a thing apart to this level before, even if a very good engineer., to have the understanding of what to look for. The only people who do are in the factory who would have an idea. This is WHY they sell these components partially manufactured. Also, you may need a clear environment to even correctly approach some of these issues.
From my perspective, I feel your position is unreasonable as it is uncommercial.

We are not talking old projector, large component, made to be able to be replaced. resolder new caps, resistors etc. This is all surface mount with clear room manufacturing needed for many aspects of the device.

Just because something can be done does not mean it should. It must be a viable commercial path.

The main reason why this is a dead projector is.. Fixing it is questionable considering the problem. it would be a long drawn out repair that, as you indicated, could take weeks of an engineers time and still have no chance. If we could get the parts. In an environment where I know of many projectors sitting idle as cinemas are going out of business all over. Projectors are worth nothing as, you have no commercial business for them while the industry contracts. It would be much easier to go purchase one of the idle projectors I know about. The owners are desperate to get ANYTHING for them.

Especially as a replacement is worth $50k equivalent. Better to pick up an NC1000 with a player for about 5-7K as thats all they are worth. And that's generous in this environment.
That would be a better path as its cheaper than fixing the projector. I know it will work after spending the money. And I don't have to do a 10+ year investment when I have no idea the cinema will have a viable business in a few years. That is a cinema operator/business person's perspective.

I own 3 small cinemas, I use to run an integrator and have an understanding of how difficult it is to keep them viable. I learnt all the engineering requirements at the time. To train them myself as staff levels and turnover in my country is too low to reliably keep the knowledge current. Ultimately, it has proven that integrators in Australia cannot be viable with "Installers" trained up to the level needed. Its not commercial, so "Installer" level techs are the go, and modular projectors have developed to cater to this worldwide trend in how this equipment is supported.

These days I still code a bit, and am kept busy running my cinemas. Coding is a far better path in terms of building a more profitable small cinema via productivity improvements that software can bring.

[Marco Giustini]

Once again, not suggesting the average "installer" should be able to dismantle a light engine.

But if the projector is totalled and the repair cost is inaccessible to the owner, then I would happily sit on a clean table and see if I can dismantle it and see if I can find the culprit. Again, we are talking about a cooling issue, not an electronic one (unless it's a sensor issue I guess).

I have no idea how the NEC laser engines are made, but why are we speculating they are as complex as a Jet engine? The module is a paperweight. Maybe someone would be willing to take a look? A good installer with some engineering skill? Some of my colleagues in the past were manufacturing PCBs, others would be good at the lathe. It's a cooling system! And let's be reasonable: weeks of time? Taking a look would take a few hours. At that point you'd know if it's something worth investing more time or not. Totally no need for weeks of time!

That said, we can agree to disagree of course.

Tony: unfortunately manufacturers don't train on how to disassemble certain parts. You can take all the courses you want but some parts are for factory only - maybe for good reason. I am not suggesting the engineer James called is not a good one.