Automation for Newbs (Myself) Christie Series 2 / Doremi+AP20 / GDC+750

[Ryan Gallagher]

Some automation elements are on my wishlist for booth improvements on both of our 2 screens. Doremi/AP20 integrations first and priority. Starting a thread just to improve my understanding of what is easily doable, doable with added hardware, warrants an automation install, versus doing it ourselves etc. etc.

TLDR is share your advice for beginner automation implementations for our setups. ;-)

Initial Goals:

1. Get audio format cues in the Doremi playlists to control AP20
2. Get audio fader set XX cues in the Doremi playlists to control AP20

Phase Maybe Goals:

1. Get lighting preset cues in the Doremi playlists.
2. Get Blu-Ray player control cues in the Doremi.
3. Get Main Drape cues in Doremi.
4. Get Auxillary music/microphone mixer control cues in Doremi (will require upgrade to digital mini mixer)
5. Get top masking motor cues in the Doremi.

Phase "Is it even worth it or possible" Goals:

1. Get audio format cues in the GDC playlists to control CP750
2. Get audio faders set XX cues in the GDC playlists to control CP750.
3. Get Blu-Ray player control cues in the GDC.
4. Get lighting preset cues in the GDC playlists.

Bit of Background:

I'm willing to nibble at these goals over time myself, as these aren't really management priorities. We are a historic live theatre with occasional festivals, premiers, and a thriving classic film series. Or DCinema install "worked around" existing 35mm infrastructure. As such, most of the projectionist controls are still laid out to best suit 35mm operation. The digital installers didn't really expend any effort on the automation front, was probably not a design requirement specified. Running digital, especially blu-ray, can often mean a fair bit of bolting from one end of the booth to the other to adjust fader, change audio format, open the curtain, change the lights, fade music, etc etc.

Being a union house we have a projectionist who has been trained up through the Local per screen in the booth for the every screening. Usually it's one of full time staff who are projectionists, but not always. Skillsets do vary a bit. So automation is really desired as a workflow improvement for us projectionists to mange pre-show events and content and get the picture rolling smoothly and professionally with fewer chances for operator caused glitches.

For festivals and special film events the stage department is fully staffed, and many cues are often handled outside the booth. It's really the classic film series and mini-seasonal series where it's all down to the projectionist.

I have an iPad we use to get remote control of the AP20 across the booth, but VNC on wifi isn't exactly how I prefer to fire critical cues etc. Very useful to have, but not a "real" solution. If I have to I also use the ipad to monitor the doremi/blu-ray playback timecode while standing in front of the lighting/curtain controls. But as we often have Q&As after shows too, closing the drape and raising the lights is rarely my only responsibility as a show concludes.

Screen 1:

Christie CP2220
Doremi DCP2000
Datasat AP20
Oppo Blu-Ray (forget model)
Motorized main curtain (need to verify brand again)
Motorized top masking (Strong/MDI).
Lighting controller (Unison or AMX, will verify)
raw DMX or sACN might be an approach too, as we don't have many panel presets available to film. (Although perhaps hidden non-panel presets can be exposed to doremi).

Screen 2 (lower priority, controls exist near operator and venue is slated for a remodel "soon"):

Christie CP2220
GDC SX3000 IMB
GDC SX2000 Server
Dolby CP750
Oppo Blu-ray (forget model)
Raw DMX lighting control ONLY when console is not powered on.


Where i'm currently at:

I've dug into manuals but not exhaustively. I've started populating serial automation macros in the Doremi and learned how to set up the corresponding serial listening events on the AP20. I have to snag a cable or CAT5 adapter in order to make a test run across the booth still. Thus, "initial goals" 1&2 seem very doable (other than needing an automation cue for every Fader level desired).

So it seems straightfoward-ish to control ONE serial device from the DOREMI. But what about once you start adding other serial endpoints? Or even better would be TCP/IP control but I don't see in the DCP2000 menus any way to set those up for devices not pre-populated in dropdowns. AP20 was not listed as an Audio Processor for example.

It seems like the AP20 is more capable of speaking to a variety of devices... but ultimately the doremi playlist is the operators tool. Perhaps with some cleverness the AP20 can talk to other devices on doremi's behalf as a translator. That may slightly more future-proof too, as I expect our DCP2000 would get replaced before the AP20.

In searching and browsing forum and archive, it seems a common industry "glue" device is the line of JNIORs, which seem pretty useful in this situation but unsure of ballpark cost etc. Do you need one per serial endpoint etc?
https://www.eugenetek.com.my/product...ry/automation/

Phase 1 may just be to prove how useful serial AP20 control is within playlists... and look at expanding the automation options down the line.

But fundamentally, other than GPIO, I don't know how you overcome the one device one serial port problem on gear that does not make TCP/IP control readily available. Is adding a FTDI usb-serial to Doremi an option to get more outgoing serial lines? I expect our motors will probably need to be GPIO, lighting perhaps serial, blue ray ideally tcp/ip though serial might be an option, etc.

What other industry or non-industry things have people utilized to do this? Obviously there are a lot of consumer things one could deploy with a bit of programming like single board computers. I'm less aware of what the industry methods are unless you have QSYS systems.

Thanks for reading to here!

[Carsten Kurz]

Well, there are some issues that are easy to solve. At least if you have your devices networked, that is, Doremi and AP20/GDC and CP750 are connected to the same switch and have their ethernetports configured to the same subnet. Then it's just a matter of setting up a few macros. No wiring needed. It's better to use Ethernet/TCP/IP for automation. So, first make sure you setup a useful auditorium network, then proceed from there.

The GPIOs may be more complicated to solve, depending on your knowledge and capabilities.

[Ryan Gallagher]

That would be great if it is possible Doremi to AP20. They are on the same 10x subnet and confirmed I could ping the AP20 from the terminal on doremi.

But I did somewhat investigate that approach first. AP20 was not in the list of known vendor Audio Processors to set up. I tried adding it as an "Unknown" type but the test connection button failed on Doremi.

Maybe there is a TCP/IP step I was missing, but it was not obvious.

Thanks.

[Marco Giustini]

Ryan,

I don't know if a preset "library" exists for the AP20 (I suspect it does) but if not, you can always set up a "RAW" device in the device manager, assign the appropriate port number and then manually create macros to send the appropriate commands to the AP20.

The port number and the commands to be sent can be found on the AP20 installation manual.

The same can be done for any networked device.

[Carsten Kurz]

If you can ping it, you're halfway there. http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f16/t001185.html

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/13...page=31#manual

https://www.datasatdigital.com/downl...ommand-api.pdf

Essentially, you would set up the

@FORMAT
and
@FADER

commands at first.

I haven't seen an AP20 library file for the Doremis. Although it would be very easy to create one based on the existing ones. I am sure some techs have one lying around.

[Ryan Gallagher]

If you can ping it, you're halfway there. http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f16/t001185.html

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/13...page=31#manual

https://www.datasatdigital.com/downl...ommand-api.pdf.

Cool. I should have some free time tonight during our comedy show to experiment with a Doremi TCP RAW device on port 14500 per the remote AP20/25 docs.
Did not think to search for a manual API supplement!.

I think if I can get it talking I can work out the remainder, very similar to the serial macros I was already configuring, except instead of custom strings I'll be sending exact ones the AP20 expects. We don't have a 24/7 server PC in the booth, though it would be handy. So trying the direct method first!

The fact no library exists in doremi makes me feel less stupid... serial was the first method found that I knew should work, but glad there are more modern ways, frees up that serial port for other automation things if needed later.

[Steve Guttag]

Note, I do encourage you to consider investing in a cinema automation system like the Eprad eCNA or Integ JNIOR. As an installer and service person, they do make a lot of things simpler and more uniform. While the servers can certainly provide TCP (or serial) commands, you then get to be into brand specific things. One of the things like like about an automation system is that it tends to make the other equipment agnostic. Ones cues and feel stops being so different between the brands. The servers just start talking with the automaton, the automation talks with the devices (it also gives one a log trail too for any "missed cues." The automations also have real relays for controlling things, like drapery/screens...etc. No like, I expect that the automations that we put in (Eprad eCNA, in our case) will out last every other piece of equipment in the booth, they're that reliable. As new equipment comes on line, one merely needs to adjust their RDI to the new equipment. If one is uniform, then all of the same commands (mute, volume, douser...etc.) line up such that none of the macros need to change. Separate automations also allow for adjusting the cues mid-show as many servers will lock you out or not acknowledge the change until a subsequent show. You can also get automations in on the act of powering things up/down. In the big picture of things, they just aren't all that expensive and cost per year is darn near free due to their longevity.

The problem with most libraries is that they are going to be a "Sample" of what you might need. They won't have, necessarily the cues that are important to your shows so you are going to have to massage whatever someone before may have created.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Note, I do encourage you to consider investing in a cinema automation system like the Eprad eCNA or Integ JNIOR.

Noted and I 100% agree. I’ll definitely research more along those lines. If it was a management directive and included budget, would definitely go that route. I think it would be super valuable once expanded to automation topics beyond the audio processors in particular.

But for a proof of concept i’m willing to invest sone time doing it the brand dependent way, even if only to make our AP20 cues easier to manage in the short term. This is not a cinemaplex with film every day, we do most things the hands on way here, still get our dcps as CRU drives etc. But that doesn’t mean i can’t make my fellow projectionists lives a little less stressful with some minor improvements.

The main screen theatre is slated for restoration not long after the smaller one. My hunch is new automation gear would be deferred till then anyhoo. As such my curtain and masking automation wishes may have to wait till then

[Marco Giustini]

The thing with the AP20 is that it’s such a powerful automation device! It can do anything.
If you run out of string space on the GUI (which has a limit) you can write the xml file directly.
I’ve done some complex setups with the AP20, including format translation (such as serial to Ethernet) and ‘pretending to be another device’ type of situation! The fact that all of that comes into a sound processor is mind blowing!

[Carsten Kurz]

Yes, the AP20/AP25 has sort of a 'poor man's JNIOR' built in.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Initial Goals 1 & 2 are now implemented for Doremi+AP20

RAW TCP/IP worked like a champ. I now have format automation, granular fader commands above 5.0 (half steps below that), mutes, unmutes, monitor mute/unmute and levels.

The one thing that felt like it was missing was a "roll off" or "fade out" option on the AP20. Perhaps there is an easier command to accomplish it but I built some stacked fader (-1)adjust/delay macros on the AP20, and then call those macros from the Doremi. Seems workable. Was probably overkill to do them in 0.1 step increments. I have a 50ms/step, 100ms/step, and 200ms/step variation of fades now.

(We are often instructed to interrupt end credits audio for Q&As trying to fire up before everyone leaves the theatre, If I know exactly where they want it I can put the roll-off in the playlist now too).

Will circle back to the other Automation topics after I do some more research on the equipment we have to interface with.

Cheers all for the assistance!

[Marco Giustini]

it's been a while, I believe on the AP20 you can set a fade-in and fade-out independently on the formats.
Clearly a 5 seconds setting won't work all the time. You could create a special format with the required fade in/out but it gets cumbersome.

Others will be able to advise better, last time I touched an AP20 was a few years ago

[Ryan Gallagher]

I believe on the AP20 you can set a fade-in and fade-out independently on the formats.
Clearly a 5 seconds setting won't work all the time. You could create a special format with the required fade in/out but it gets cumbersome.

I do see that option in the format settings. I'll have to debate which method is more cumbersome. Changing away from the format currently playing to achieve a fade seems like a hard thing to document for others. At least the macro and cue, despite it's brute force method, presents it's designed intent clearly, just can't do specific fade times with mine... it will vary a bit depending on what fader level you start from.

[Ryan Gallagher]

I decided to poke at using the AP20 to do a IP to Serial translation to talk to the blu-ray player.

When sending a serial string from the AP20, what can i put in the edit field to represent the ASCII carriage return. This is on the AP20 outgoing serial macros... \r worked on the Doremi talking to AP20.

I feel like I tried the logical ones already:
\r
\0D
\0x0d

I did set the baud and parity etc to what the Oppo Blu-Ray docs specify. It might be this cable, the only thing resembling a serial cable handy in the booth and I suppose I should check it's pinout. Label would indicate it was a DTS timecode cable in a past life.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Escape sequences aside. Might have answered my Q. I think i would need a Null Modem serial to go direct from the AP20 to Oppo. (Two DTE devices)

This guy is straight thru.