ICMP-x battery issue on a Barco DP2k-8s

[Carsten Kurz]

Would also be useful if ALL devices with a non-field-recoverable-cert battery would warn in time (based on actual cell voltage). Barely 5 years without a warning for an ICMP (a fairly modern IMS) is bad design and pretty close to planned obsolescence.
Especially considering BARCOs service cost behaviour.

[Bruce Cloutier]

You can debate the design but the problem ICMP boards are out there. Any new, more logical, design would only benefit future installs and replacements. There is no perfect design for this. Murphy's Laws cover this in more than one way.

I think the only path is to beat up the source (Barco in this case) to have them create some remote update to resolve this. Perhaps you can appeal to their senses given the state of the planet to eliminate the cost (or substantially reduce it) and to cut the turnaround time. Maybe even cover the shipping. Should they be profiting from this pandemic? Or, should they be trying to help their customers survive and get back in business? What good is Copyright protection if there is no one left to show your work?

Um, this is going to be a very prevalent issue in trying to restart a lot of locations I would think.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Alll this 5 year stuff and the GDC SX-3000's batteries are only good for three years. It was kind of funny because at the 3 year mark when they started to fail even GDC here in the States did not know the battery life was that short. I had two fail that they replaced no questions asked.

[Steve Guttag]

Mark...it depends on the unit. The SX-2000AR (same as the SX-3000 but just an IMB)...those batteries DID go 5-years (same batteries too). Apparently, the SX-3000 just draws more or maybe it gets hotter due to the other bits and pieces that causes it to drain faster but I consistently get 5-years on the SX-2000AR batteries.

Bruce, yes we can debate a design but, trust me, these discussions DO affect future purchasing decisions by many (especially those that don't post...the very large crowd of lurkers).

Historically, Barco has turned a VERY deaf ear to their service/support policies. They are still the only manufacturer that I know that only supports their repair parts for a mere 90-days! It has been brought up time and again to them...if they grant you an extension to say 4 or 5 months, they really do treat it like they are doing you a favor to support their product. They outright will not "repair" parts outside of warranty. The only exception is the light engine but it is neither cheap or fast and, historically, can only be done at the factory so figure in those shipping costs/time delays. Barco/Cinionic are also notorious for not accepting returns of parts that don't fix a problem...even if their Tech support instructed the field tech to replace the part.

The Enigma and Dolby's CAT862 (in terms of aging equipment) have gone the super-cap approach...while not a 100% success rate, I'd say from a service standpoint, losing the certificate on those two items is quite the rarity (unless you outright let it discharge).

[Carsten Kurz]

I think the only path is to beat up the source (Barco in this case) to have them create some remote update to resolve this.

As far as I know, cert recovery must strictly be done in a factory environment. One company had an option to do this in the field, and they learned the hard way...

[Bruce Cloutier]

As far as I know, cert recovery must strictly be done in a factory environment. One company had an option to do this in the field, and they learned the hard way...

I understand the requirement. My point is that we are in strange and unique times. There are going to be a lot of folks with dead batteries who shouldn't be penalized for not being on top of their routine maintenance procedures... considering. That, just perhaps, is a rule that can be bent at least temporarily. What's more important? The greed in copyright protection or the survival of the cinemas who covert their art into profit?

I would think that if Barco, GDC, or whomever want their businesses to return they need to help remove the ridiculous hurdles that the industry arbitrarily created and that stand in the way of getting things back up and running. They certainly can do something other than recoil back into some cave someplace leaving everyone stranded.

Is my point.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Mark...it depends on the unit. The SX-2000AR (same as the SX-3000 but just an IMB)...those batteries DID go 5-years (same batteries too). Apparently, the SX-3000 just draws more or maybe it gets hotter due to the other bits and pieces that causes it to drain faster but I consistently get 5-years on the SX-2000AR batteries.

Yep! That's why I only mentioned the SX-3000. Just after the second one failed they released the bulletin. I actually had three early GDC Servers go almost 7 years before they released that bulletin. I caught those just in the nick of time.

[Carsten Kurz]

I would think that if Barco, GDC, or whomever want their businesses to return they need to help remove the ridiculous hurdles that the industry arbitrarily created and that stand in the way of getting things back up and running. They certainly can do something other than recoil back into some cave someplace leaving everyone stranded.

Is my point.

If this case isn't the occasional outlier, Barco will learn the hard way, too. Manufacturers and integrators can usually hide some engineering deficits under the 'shit happens' phrase - as long as it shows randomly enough. If this premature cert loss is a sign for an issue hitting many devices, they will certainly have to revise their service strategy. Especially under Corona shutdown conditions. If Doremi/Dolby can reserialize a media block for 375US$, why shouldn't this be possible for other manufacturers too. The next 1-3 years will see a considerable amount of cert battery related equipment failures. It's hard enough for exhibitors to keep their head up currently. They do not need any more.
The trouble is, many exhibitors simply do not know about these batteries and the risks involved. I mean, these boards go for 4000-8000 US$. They supply free firmware upgrades to devices in the field being sold 5 years ago. That is certainly more expensive than putting it on a bench and running a secret sauce cert recovery software for a handful of devices each year.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

If Doremi/Dolby can reserialize a media block for 375US$, why shouldn't this be possible for other manufacturers too.

GDC can do it, but the media block has to go back to them.

[James Norman]

If this case isn't the occasional outlier, Barco will learn the hard way, too. Manufacturers and integrators can usually hide some engineering deficits under the 'shit happens' phrase - as long as it shows randomly enough. If this premature cert loss is a sign for an issue hitting many devices, they will certainly have to revise their service strategy. Especially under Corona shutdown conditions. If Doremi/Dolby can reserialize a media block for 375US$, why shouldn't this be possible for other manufacturers too. The next 1-3 years will see a considerable amount of cert battery related equipment failures. It's hard enough for exhibitors to keep their head up currently. They do not need any more.
The trouble is, many exhibitors simply do not know about these batteries and the risks involved. I mean, these boards go for 4000-8000 US$. They supply free firmware upgrades to devices in the field being sold 5 years ago. That is certainly more expensive than putting it on a bench and running a secret sauce cert recovery software for a handful of devices each year.

The hard truths of investing in an expensive DCI compliant projector for a small post studio to work in a visually 'like for like' environment as the large box office cinemas has been brought home to me. Costs are indeed relative. It would be great if manufacturers such as Barco could be more understanding and flexible to the financial footprint of their clientbase. Its ironic that alot of beautiful images people see in large cinema multiplexes, where maintenance/repair costs are negligible, will have originated from small post studios (which must share the same viewing technology in order to be faithful to the end result) will face the same maintenance/repair costs. There is also the issue of local market currency depreciation.In my case, here in Turkey, with an annual inflation rate of around 10-12%. This time 5 years ago, 1 euro bought you 2.87 Turkish Liras. Now 1 euro buys you 7.83 Turkish Liras. A flagship company which stands apart from the rest is Filmlight, they do listen to their wide client base and have been very supportive of currency depreciation in foreign markets. In Turkey, Christie projection is currently more prevalent, but looking to 4k this may change. Ive always preferred working with Barco projection, better colorimetry and more organic. Dont disappoint us Barco. PS, Originally. i was just gonna thank people for their advice and help relating to my battery issue, but a few pints have loosened the tongue...and also made me forget a hefty barco bill. Im thinking of gathering a few signatures from film professionals and petitioning Barco to implement more realistic end of warranty repair costs. Anyone interested?

[Marcel Birgelen]

I would be willing to sign such a petition, although I don't think it will do that much... still, sometimes, little steps can make a bigger impact. I'm not sure how many signatures you could realistically gather. We're roughly in the same boat, but our Barco equipment is still under extended warranty. Also, until now (knock on wood), no real big-ticket items have left us and we keep an eye on all the batteries that could run dry. It helps that we used our screening room as our own personal lockdown theater the last few months, keeping most of the stuff running for a few times a week.

I also generally prefer Barco over the other options, but their repair policy is indeed not very productive in the current environment, quite the oposite. I can understand Barco having plenty of issues on their own, since many of the markets they're operating in, are also heavily impacted by the global lockdowns, but they're the multi-billion dollar/euro gorilla in the room, and I think they should show some leeway towards lockdown-related issues like vanished certificates. So, like Bruce already indicated, maybe they can, temporarily, reduce their repair rates, give discount on shipping, come up with a way to re-enroll certificates onto failed ICMPs remotely, even if it's maybe only through a certified service engineer, etc., etc. There are lots of ways Barco could help the industry, in a way it will eventually help to preserve just this industry.

While Barco's market certainly is far bigger than just cinema, it has been a lucrative niche for them and a big part of their bottom line in the last 15 or so years. Let's hope they can give a bit back, now, where it's most needed.

[Steve Guttag]

I mean, these boards go for 4000-8000 US$. They supply free firmware upgrades to devices in the field being sold 5 years ago.

Hold on there...one prominent server manufacturer has dispensed with the "free" and gone quite the opposite. It's included for the 3-year basic warranty...but after that...pay up for "potential" software updates. Think you'll do without? Think again...they have a 10-year max on their certificates so if your server goes that long...you have to pay up to get their software update and certificate expiration update. They have, graciously, lowered the price for those seeking the certificate update.

There is a way that DCI could help the industry. Require certificates last 20-25-years (clearly beyond the useful life of the product due to technology). I'd go further, myself and also prohibit any form of licensing being required for using one manufacturer's product in another (e.g. Server G being used in projector B). DCI was supposed to eliminate the notion of incompatible products (like the digital audio of the film era). The customer (theatre owner) should be able to choose which products they prefer and not be forced into the "package." If a server is certified as DCI compliant, your DCI compliant projector has to accept it (and use a standard connector/physical dimension). And further, I'd make it a requirement that firmware updates, for compatibility, should be perpetual for the life of the hardware (new features are a different story...though I think charging for software that only runs on your hardware sucks...your return on investment is the continued use of your hardware).

[Marcel Birgelen]

Hold on there...one prominent server manufacturer has dispensed with the "free" and gone quite the opposite.

Ah, the Goldemort Distribution Company?

There is a way that DCI could help the industry. Require certificates last 20-25-years (clearly beyond the useful life of the product due to technology).

According to the X.509 standard, if using "GeneralizedTime", the maximum validity of a certificate would be Dec. 31 9999. Why not just maximize validity and be done with it? The whole system is off-line verified. It makes sense to limit validity for on-line certificates, where there usually also is a mechanism in place to renew them. Nobody should be allowed to design obsolescence into any given system, I'd say the year 9999 may be seen as a compromise in this.

I'd go further, myself and also prohibit any form of licensing being required for using one manufacturer's product in another (e.g. Server G being used in projector B). DCI was supposed to eliminate the notion of incompatible products (like the digital audio of the film era). The customer (theatre owner) should be able to choose which products they prefer and not be forced into the "package." If a server is certified as DCI compliant, your DCI compliant projector has to accept it (and use a standard connector/physical dimension). And further, I'd make it a requirement that firmware updates, for compatibility, should be perpetual for the life of the hardware (new features are a different story...though I think charging for software that only runs on your hardware sucks...your return on investment is the continued use of your hardware).

While I totally agree with this, you'll see that manufacturers will always find a way to work around this in one way or another and they'll claim that otherwise, their technical development will be stalled. To some extend, they may even be right. The problem is that DCI was never really designed with the exhibition industry in mind. It was primarily a vehicle pushed by the studios, in order to save money on their end on distribution, but to keep their precious content safe in the process.

In my opinion, DCI has done very little for the industry itself, beyond the initial push to digital, which, in my opinion, came a few years too early. DCI standards have been stagnant for years now and have primarily served in making equipment far more expensive than it needs to be. The core content delivery standard, the DCP, is by all means a convoluted way of delivering something that's essentially just video and sound. DCI security has riddled our expensive equipment with boobytraps that can go off any minute. And what for? The instigators of this all miserably fail to protect their own precious content, leaking it on all sides to the Internet, often even before it hits the first screen...

With Sony exiting the DCI business, I'd say that DCI failed us. Maybe, in the post-Coronavirus world, it's time to think about a way ahead. A way in which we start to ditch DCI in its current form entirely and we look for other, more open ways of distributing content. This would also allow more competition and better prices for equipment. Panasonic, for example, offers a whole range of professional projectors that, with very little to no adaptations at all, could replace any existing DCI projector. Also, there are very interesting developments ongoing, regarding large, high-resolution LED walls. We actually considered a LED wall setup for a pop-up drive-in. The picture would've been AWESOME and it would even have worked greatly with a lot of ambient light in the surroundings, but we couldn't play any encrypted DCI studio content on it...

As for interfaces: We have plenty of interfaces that do the trick. We've got SDI in all kinds of bandwidth, we've got HDMI for more consumer-oriented stuff. Furthermore, we've got Ethernet, which is cheap and can scale to 100GBit/s or more. Infiniband, USB... enough standards to move bits from A to B.

[Steve Guttag]

I, for one, don't mind limiting the industry to a higher standard. With the wild-west of non standard our industry will gravitate towards the completely cheap and make us even less distinguishable from the home show. Exhibitors don't even do masking or curtains now. it is like wanting to charge sit-down restaurant prices for the McDonald's atmosphere. But that's business. They'll always figure out how little they can get away with and never notice that slowly they are losing customers that just don't see the value anymore.

So, sorry Panasonic...step up to the plate, if you want to.

As for LED walls...I think they are our future (though I believe the Samsung Onyx program has stalled/stopped...it's tough to tell in the current world that isn't spinning much anymore) but the sound aspect has to be addressed and thus far, it doesn't work for me.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I'm not saying we should drop presentation standards, quite to the contrary. But, there is so much out there, that easily equals or simply surpasses anything we do in cinema exhibition, but none of it can be used, not because of lack of quality, but simply, because of lack of DCI security in those systems.

And while I can follow your reasoning that DCI should ensure a sort of minimal presentation quality, in practice, sorry, it doesn't do that at all. While during the years of DCI conversion, many theaters may have gotten their long-overdue refurbishments, the temporary uptick in AVERAGE quality this may have brought, has long since waned.

Whatever should replace DCI, should still strictly formulate quality standards, but should simply replace the current security mechanism with something far less intrusive. With ever-closing theatrical windows, I doubt we need anything more than standard HDCP or maybe no security at all... Some simple watermarking is probably even more effective.

In the case of Panasonic: The reason why they won't join the DCI club is not because their equipment can't match the quality standards, because it can, but simply because they couldn't be bothered to invest millions of dollars into integrating the DCI security mechanisms, just for a potential handful of sales. The same goes for LED wall manufacturers. Samsung being the behemoth they are, they probably can afford a DCI project potentially failing, smaller suppliers simply won't take the risk.