Need perspective on the "all-in-one" DCIs like Barco's Alchemy

[Frank Angel]

We are looking to outfit our still all film booth with digital (yah, it's about time, right). We are looking at the compact offerings like Barco's Alchemy DP2K-23B. Everything's in one box which is attractive. BUT, if my memory serves, there were quite a few of our F-T community here didn't have very good things to say about these integrated units. Is that still the same; would I be wise to stay away from them, or might they have improved over the years? I think the DP2k-23B is a Series 3 and with their ICMP-X, it will have the ready-to-go ability to display a variety of consumer formats which is important to us.

I think one of the things that was on the con list for these was lackluster image brightness. Thing is, we are filling a 40ft scope screen so we are not talking about a particularly large screen.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Sean McKinnon]

HI Frank. The DP2K-23B is a series 2 machine. I would look into a separate ICP/IMS situation like the Dolby IMS 3000 which has been rock solid for us so far.

[Leo Enticknap]

Both approaches have their pros and cons. It used to be the case (I don't know if it still is) that Barco almost gave away the Alchemy/ICMP with a new Series 2 projector purchase, and that there had to be a compelling reason to spend significant extra money if you wanted a Dolby or GDC IMS instead of the ICMP.

My personal opinion, in very rough terms, is that if you will be playing DCPs most of the time and it still works out significantly cheaper, the Alchemy/ICMP is a good bet. If you will be using the HDMI input a lot, the IMS3000 (I have found the ICMP to be glitchy and troublesome with EDID and HDCP handshaking, especially when fed by a Lumagen scaler, whereas the IMS3000 with recent firmware seems to be the most reliable). If the lowest purchase price is the most important consideration, you will likely be drawn to GDC (which also offers arguably the most sophisticated and flexible automation features of the three, especially if you need your server to receive and act on external commands, as well as send outgoing commands to other devices).

[Steve Guttag]

Leo, while the Doremi/Dolby command interface can seem nasty, you can certainly use the IMS to receive and send commands like an automation device (set up triggers and macros). I'd say that the Doremi/Dolby Ethernet commands can be a bit fussy and one essentially always has to put in the \w command or cues will get missed. I'm not sure how the GDC has more sophisticated automation features. In fact, GDC is a bit clunky when moving between HDMI and DCP whereas one has to set up a fake show to run for HDMI or SDI. Neither the Barco nor the Dolby need to do that. I believe GDC also is the only server now that insists on a "proper shutdown" before killing projector power. Barco doesn't even have a shutdown command. On a semi-recent webinar on the Dolby docking station, the techs from Doremi repeated several times how the IMS3000 really doesn't have an issue with sudden loss of power (unlike the IMS1000 that would go corrupt).

[Carsten Kurz]

I think one of the things that was on the con list for these was lackluster image brightness.

Why would an IMS imply 'lackluster image brightness?

IMS had a bad reputation as long as their early implementations fought with their teething problems - namely, the Doremi IMS1000, and the ill-fated Christie IMB-S2.
More recent devices do quite well. One limitation for most IMS is their storage limitation compared to traditional Rack servers. However, some now do support larger storage devices, others offer certain other ways to remedy - e.g. play without prior ingest, fast network transfers.

One issue I see with IMS is that IMS are meant for the streamlined multiplex, ultimately, boothless operation, typically through a TMS. The local user interface often offers nothing more than the bare necessary, assuming that the TMS offers more sophisticated means. Especially, the GUI to create and edit show playlist is mediocre at best on most IMS, and I don't expect it to improve. This is not a killer issue, with some training, it can be overcome. However, it depends a bit on who uses the server under which conditions. If a mixed untrained crew is meant to use it, I would opt for a device with an easier user interface at least for ingest and playlist programming. Not that there is much choice left now...
The best user interface for this type of usage probably was the Dolby DSS GUI, followed by the Sony 51x/81x series. Both gone now, unfortunately.

Are you on a tight budget? What type of audio processor is currently installed in the film booth?

- Carsten

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

[QUOTE=Steve Guttag;n6892]Leo, while the Doremi/Dolby command interface can seem nasty, you can certainly use the IMS to receive and send commands like an automation device (set up triggers and macros).

Steve, You talk like this automation interface is something new when it's actually been around in Dolby and GDC servers from Day 1.

[Steve Guttag]

Carsten, the IMS3000 can be ordered with 2TB storage, 4TB storage or 10.5TB storage (via a dedicated NAS on its own dedicated NIC. One can also use a NAS as an "in addition to" type storage. So the storage advantage of the box servers is effectively gone. The IMS3000 can play right off of the CRU drive via USB3.

I'm no fan of the IMS UIs. In fact, I think UIs, as people have moved to WEB-UIs have gone downhill and feel like a collection of separate thing rather than a cohesive holistic system. I might give the edge to the ICMP's UI on the current crop but people will acclimate to most any UI, unfortunately because that means there is a learning curve. The DSS Show Manger was the best. The other realities are, you touched on is that with a TMS, the user interaction with the individual server is minimized.

One thing the ICMP-X has, in this application is that it is more integrated into the projector since it is the ICP of the projector too. If you want to select an SDI source, just create a macro for it and assign it to a button (physical or via the touchpanel). One does not need to tell the server to switch as well as the projector to possibly format the image as well. It is a one-stop-shop. The service record, for us, is not as good on the ICMP series as the IMS series. I've had to change a significant number of ICMPs...including the second generation with HDMI 2.0 ports. I have no ICMP-X in the field.

I tell you, one thing I like about the IMS3000 over all of the other options...it uses a super-cap instead of batteries. Run it for 72-hours over 6-months and it could go on indefinitely. I've been burned by IMB battery failures this summer, in particular. It is one less service item to keep up with. You still have the ICP battery but it is a long life battery and it just the RTC of the unit. The soldered in battery is just that...it is going to last how long it is going to last.

As for the image of the DP2K-23B...it is a 24,000 lumen machine (on day 1) so if you have enough light, you have enough light. A 23B will have no problem lighting a matte-white screen, 40-feet wide.

[Alan Gouger]

With the IMS3000 are they still converting HDMI to XYZ color space?

[Leo Enticknap]

Yes (optional), if it can detect the incoming HDMI color space correctly from EDID data; otherwise GI=GO. In my experience, the IMS3000 with recent firmware is pretty good at this, the 2000 significantly less so (and it cannot process HDMI above 1080p60), and all three variants of the Barco ICMP highly unreliable. This is essentially why the IMS3000 would be my server/media block of choice if alternative content is to be used heavily. Of course if the incoming HDMI is from a scaler that is converting everything to one color space and encoding method, then the auto detect function on the IMS is not needed.

More recent GDCs can output DCI XYZ regardless of the input source as well.

[Alan Gouger]

Leo, the IMS3000 you mention optional. On HDMI if sending RGB or if EDID detects RGB is there a way to have it output RGB or does it always XYX for HDMI. I never liked this on previous versions I always felt they should give you the option. Thank you.

[Frank Angel]

To answer a few questions -- Carsten -- I was not saying one way or another that these units were inherantly produced dim images only that I had ready that comment here on F-T when they were first introduced, so just questions it.

In our venue, the system will almost always be operated by what CUNY (City University of NY) calls a College Laboratory Technician and I haven't met one yet that hasn't been a quick learner and capable of handling most any GUI; if the server can do what it is supposed to do, the CLT will make it do it. All the ordinary issues needed in commercial cinema operations are not needed here, i.e., automation -- everything is run manually at each show and always with an operator in the booth. Should someone down the line decide they want the system to do what a projectionist used to do for show -- operation of the preshow music, lights, curtain, masking, etc, that will be on them; I'll be retired. But again, since every show is a one-off engagement (or possibly on some infrequent occasions, a program that may run over a weekend, with a title or two needed to be stored for a Monday screening, there is no reason to have to worry massive HDrive storage space as in adding a NAS or such -- we are never going to need to store a slew of films. And lastly, this will never need to be run remotely, so the ability to do that would be not be a want.

Thanks guys.

[Leo Enticknap]

With the input color space set to auto, the output (to the ICP) is converted to XYZ. Here is an IMS3000 with the HDMI input on auto:

IMS3000_HDMI_selectinputcolor.png

...and this is the projector in which it is used:

select_PCF.PNG

I'm afraid I couldn't tell you right now if, when auto color space detect (from EDID) on the IMS3000 is not selected, whether the output is simply passed through unchanged, or if an attempt is made to convert that to XYZ, based on what you tell it the input should be. I've a feeling it's passed through, based on some problematic installs I did of 2000s and 3000s with early firmware. All I can say is that the auto detection on the 3000 with 3.4.X and later firmware is good enough that I've never had to use a manual setting for the input color space.

[Steve Guttag]

Leo, are you favoring the HDMI input on the IMS3000 over the DVI inputs of the projector (or possibly HDMI inputs on some later projectors)? Are your customers finding it awkward to select the input on the IMS3000 AND select an appropriate preset on the projector?

How about sound, particularly in 7.1 venues, I don't believe the IMS3000 routes HDMI Lrs/Rrs to 11/12 output so then one has to reroute the DCP stuff. I've been burned, multiple times, in the past, by moving the DCP routing off of standard when servers (from multiple companies) "forget" that routing and I get "talking out of the surrounds" when the ADA stuff is playing. I have, thus far, always tried to keep DCP channel routing standard and do any audio routing within the sound processor are via physical cable wiring.

[Carsten Kurz]

While I am a fan of the ICMP and it's basic connectivity for alternative sources (HD-SDI, 2*DP+HDMI1.4a, or 2*HDMI2.0), I found it awkward that for the general user, there are no config options for the HDMI and display port inputs. The only way to change certain settings seems to be Communicator Post. On our Sony, I have easy access to all settings and can set them either manual or auto, for color space, range, and deinterlacing. Even some color control dials are available if needed. Also no constraints whatsoever about how and when HDMI can be activated. It's not a killer issue, since I usually buy HDMI gear that allows me to set all HDMI output properties to specific values, but, it is an unnecessary source of possible problems.

[Leo Enticknap]

Leo, are you favoring the HDMI input on the IMS3000 over the DVI inputs of the projector (or possibly HDMI inputs on some later projectors)? Are your customers finding it awkward to select the input on the IMS3000 AND select an appropriate preset on the projector?

No - the decision as to whether to use HDMI inputs on the IMB/IMS or the projector's input board involves a number of factors. Some of the theaters I install or service do it one way, others the other. In the case of projectors that only have one option slot and therefore no alternative to the IMB's HDMI jack (e.g. NEC 900 and 1000), the decision is out of my hands. Obviously, the ease or difficulty of configuring the correct color space is one of the factors that go in to that decision when we do have the choice: audio and automation are others.