Ooops, up again, great...

[Bobby Henderson]

Here in Oklahoma earthquakes are a growing concern. There is a lot of controversy involving horizontal oil drilling and the fracking process that goes with it. Long dormant fault lines have been re-awakened by the activity. We haven't had any severe earthquakes but some have been substantial and done significant damage to buildings and utility lines. I remember one in late 2011 that measure 5.3 in magnitude. The epicenter was about 120 miles from my home in Lawton. The initial shock felt like a really heavy artillery blast nearby on Fort Sill. But then my house felt like it was rolling on waves, like we were on a charter boat in the ocean.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I see what you mean! New York City, 1888. The construction of utility poles was almost completely unregulated until that winter, when a linesman was electrocuted while repairing a low voltage telegraph cable, that had accidentally touched the failed insulation of a high voltage DC power line a few hundred yards away. That accident is alleged to have inspired the invention of the electric chair (source).

Yeah, I guess we can be happy that Westinghouse/Tesla eventually won the race with the somewhat more sensible way of distributing electricity via slowly stepped-down AC than via DC in a gazillion different voltages and a power generation station on every street corner. Still, some less fortunate neighborhoods, especially those in developing countries, look pretty close to this, to this day...

I guess earthquakes are another reason why underground utility lines are less popular in this part of the country. It would take a lot longer to repair a buried conduit than to put up new poles, I'd guess.

There is probably no country so densely populated and exposed to potentially very destructive earthquakes as Japan. According to research conducted by them, underground utilities almost always fared better during earthquakes. The primary advantage was that toppled poles wouldn't block the street for emergency vehicles, but underground infrastructure, apparently, is also less prone to earthquake damage in general. Sure, if a fault line runs right through, services will be disrupted, but if it would've been run overhead, those poles would also most likely have toppled.

As for repair time: There is a bit of controversy about this. Since damage to overhead lines is usually bigger than that to underground lines. While it may take a bit longer to trace and repair a single fault, damage done by storms, earthquake or fire usually affects overhead lines much more, so apparently, repair times for underground infrastructure after a major incident, on average, are shorter.

The reason why Japan keeps constructing overhead lines is simply down to cost, combined with a bit of the Japanese mentality. You lived the first part of your life in Europe, in the UK. We tend to keep houses for longer. Instead of demolishing them, we often repurpose old structures. In any way, houses are expected to last for at least a few generations. That mentality may be already a bit different in the U.S., but in Japan, many houses are simply razed after about only 30 or 40 years, they're often not even really being cared for, because their projected lifetime was already limited when they were constructed. They're seen as expendable, probably also because there is a realistic chance the house will be hit by a major catastrophe during its projected lifetime. This probably also has an impact on how they build-up their infrastructure. When you expect to raze everything in a 30-year cycle, you're not going to invest in infrastructure that's meant to "last forever".

Here in Oklahoma earthquakes are a growing concern. There is a lot of controversy involving horizontal oil drilling and the fracking process that goes with it. Long dormant fault lines have been re-awakened by the activity. We haven't had any severe earthquakes but some have been substantial and done significant damage to buildings and utility lines. I remember one in late 2011 that measure 5.3 in magnitude. The epicenter was about 120 miles from my home in Lawton. The initial shock felt like a really heavy artillery blast nearby on Fort Sill. But then my house felt like it was rolling on waves, like we were on a charter boat in the ocean.

After about 50 years of pumping large quantities of gas out of their fields in the North, the Netherlands has finally learned that such things do come with consequences. While there hasn't been a 5+ magnitude earthquake traced back to gas production yet, there have been large amounts of smaller tremors. While those usually don't kill people, they cause an enormous amounts of property damage over time. I can imagine that if you live in naturally seismic active regions, those kind of tremors could eventually also trigger something much larger.

[Bobby Henderson]

I think all the minor and not so minor earthquakes in Oklahoma have done a great deal of damage to building foundations. The local TV stations have a lot of foundation repair commercials running.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

I think all the minor and not so minor earthquakes in Oklahoma have done a great deal of damage to building foundations. The local TV stations have a lot of foundation repair commercials running.

Bobby, I don't know what they use to build foundations in OK, but here in TN they use stacked cinder block. I watch million+ dollar homes get built on that crap. I would NEVER own, or have a home built unless it was on a concrete foundation. And like your area... about every third tv commercial is for foundation repair. I think the builders also own the foundation repair companies.

[Marcel Birgelen]

You'd say that a concrete foundation would be cheaper nowadays than an old-school stacked cinder bock one... but then again, costs of building materials often differ between regions.

I think all the minor and not so minor earthquakes in Oklahoma have done a great deal of damage to building foundations. The local TV stations have a lot of foundation repair commercials running.

It took years in court before the Dutch state, which owns the energy company responsible for the production of that gas would finally be found to be responsible for all those earthquakes. At first, they obviously played it down as much as they could. Millions of euros and years down the road, they finally had to admit, so now they're also required to compensate for damages. The thing is, it's still the responsibility of the property owner to actually prove the damages were caused by those earthquakes.

It will be interesting to see if the energy companies operating in and around Oklahoma will eventually be held accountable for the damages that they potentially inflicted.

[Bobby Henderson]

To this day the oil and gas industry in Oklahoma denies up and down that any of their fracking operations have any effect on the frequency of earthquakes. To them it's just a really odd coincidence. 30-40 years ago earthquakes were especially rare, even in areas like the Wichita Mountains near me (which have a number of fault lines). Now there are several hundred of them per year above 2 in magnitude and more than 1000 per year below 2 in magnitude. Anything below 2 in magnitude is difficult for people to feel. We get some threes and fours every now and then. There was a 3.7 earthquake yesterday (Feb 28), centered 16 miles from Enid. There was a 4.2 earthquake on Feb 19 near Manchester, OK. The USGS reported four earthquakes in Oklahoma just today ranging 2.5 to 2.9 in magnitude.

Bobby, I don't know what they use to build foundations in OK, but here in TN they use stacked cinder block. I watch million+ dollar homes get built on that crap.

The foundation types vary from house to house. A lot of older homes are built on solid concrete stem walls. Many of the newer, large, high dollar homes usually have big solid slabs of concrete for the foundation.

One of the problems here in Oklahoma is the soil type in many places: red clay. That crap is pretty unstable. Any developer choosing to take shortcuts with ground prep and grading is really going to pay for it on the back end. Around 12 years ago an episode of Extreme Makeover: Home Edition on ABC was produced here in Lawton. They built this big house in a matter of a couple or so days of round the clock work (including demolishing the old house). They did it for a local military family; the dad was paralyzed in combat and their son was paralyzed in a car accident. Much of the community really pitched in to help the family. Anyway, a couple years go by and the house had all kinds of problems with the foundation. The family ended up having to sell the place and move elsewhere. Someone else bought the property, but I'm sure they spent a shit-ton repairing the foundation and other things. You just can't rush home building, at least not in these parts.

[Leo Enticknap]

The reason why Japan keeps constructing overhead lines is simply down to cost, combined with a bit of the Japanese mentality. You lived the first part of your life in Europe, in the UK. We tend to keep houses for longer. Instead of demolishing them, we often repurpose old structures. In any way, houses are expected to last for at least a few generations. That mentality may be already a bit different in the U.S., but in Japan, many houses are simply razed after about only 30 or 40 years, they're often not even really being cared for, because their projected lifetime was already limited when they were constructed. They're seen as expendable, probably also because there is a realistic chance the house will be hit by a major catastrophe during its projected lifetime. This probably also has an impact on how they build-up their infrastructure. When you expect to raze everything in a 30-year cycle, you're not going to invest in infrastructure that's meant to "last forever".

It's more a case of structures being designed to minimize the cost of reconstruction after an earthquake here, rather than being designed with a short lifespan in mind. Within a 20-30 mile radius of where I live, buildings more than 50 years old are unusual. But that's because 50 years ago, most of the land around here had orange and grapefruit trees on it, not homes and business structures. The exception is the city next door, Redlands, which does have an entire residential neighborhood of wood frame houses dating from the 1890s. They are all perfectly inhabitable, but need quite a bit of maintenance. Keeping the termites out is a never ending battle. Cinderblock and brick structures are very unusual (apart from chimney housings), because state and local building codes heavily restrict their use. They are far more dangerous in an earthquake than timber frame buildings are. I once read the statistic that around 90% of the structures damaged in the 1994 Northridge Earthquake were repaired, rather than razed and a new building put up in its place. The ones that did have to be demolished and started over were, as a general rule, those that were not of timber frame construction.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

To this day the oil and gas industry in Oklahoma denies up and down that any of their fracking operations have any effect on the frequency of earthquakes. To them it's just a really odd coincidence. 30-40 years ago earthquakes were especially rare, even in areas like the Wichita Mountains near me (which have a number of fault lines). Now there are several hundred of them per year above 2 in magnitude and more than 1000 per year below 2 in magnitude. Anything below 2 in magnitude is difficult for people to feel. We get some threes and fours every now and then. There was a 3.7 earthquake yesterday (Feb 28), centered 16 miles from Enid. There was a 4.2 earthquake on Feb 19 near Manchester, OK. The USGS reported four earthquakes in Oklahoma just today ranging 2.5 to 2.9 in magnitude.



The foundation types vary from house to house. A lot of older homes are built on solid concrete stem walls. Many of the newer, large, high dollar homes usually have big solid slabs of concrete for the foundation.

One of the problems here in Oklahoma is the soil type in many places: red clay. That crap is pretty unstable. Any developer choosing to take shortcuts with ground prep and grading is really going to pay for it on the back end. Around 12 years ago an episode of Extreme Makeover: Home Edition on ABC was produced here in Lawton. They built this big house in a matter of a couple or so days of round the clock work (including demolishing the old house). They did it for a local military family; the dad was paralyzed in combat and their son was paralyzed in a car accident. Much of the community really pitched in to help the family. Anyway, a couple years go by and the house had all kinds of problems with the foundation. The family ended up having to sell the place and move elsewhere. Someone else bought the property, but I'm sure they spent a shit-ton repairing the foundation and other things. You just can't rush home building, at least not in these parts.

WOW! Homes without basements in the middle of tornado alley? Another no-no in my book. I suppose you could buy one of those steel shelter thingies in case you couldn't make it over to Uncle Zeke's storm cellar..., but except in apartments, excluding one that did have a basement I have never not had a basement and that would just seem really strange to be without one. Basements make great audio listening rooms and storm shelters.

[Bobby Henderson]

WOW! Homes without basements in the middle of tornado alley? Another no-no in my book.

Basements do not qualify as worthy safe rooms in the event of a tornado. Only a truly fortified safe room with thick concrete walls built in the center of a home or down basement, or does. A separate storm cellar built completely below ground can also work.

If you try riding out a tornado in an ordinary basement and your house suffers a direct hit you'll still be directly exposed to all kinds of danger. Much of the house could collapse in on you. In that scenario you could be terribly injured immediately and/or trapped in the debris. You could have flood waters pouring in while you're trapped or badly injured. In a severe enough tornado strike, such as the F5 that hit Jarrell, TX in 1998, the funnel will just scour you right out of that basement. That one even chewed the tops off storm cellars that weren't built completely below ground.

Some homes, but not very many, around here do have basements. The soil is more challenging. More often any below ground floors are typically found in commercial office buildings.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Basements do not qualify as worthy safe rooms in the event of a tornado. Only a truly fortified safe room with thick concrete walls built in the center of a home or down basement, or does. A separate storm cellar built completely below ground can also work.

If you try riding out a tornado in an ordinary basement and your house suffers a direct hit you'll still be directly exposed to all kinds of danger. Much of the house could collapse in on you. In that scenario you could be terribly injured immediately and/or trapped in the debris. You could have flood waters pouring in while you're trapped or badly injured. In a severe enough tornado strike, such as the F5 that hit Jarrell, TX in 1998, the funnel will just scour you right out of that basement. That one even chewed the tops off storm cellars that weren't built completely below ground.

Some homes, but not very many, around here do have basements. The soil is more challenging. More often any below ground floors are typically found in commercial office buildings.

Bobby, I actually know several people who survived tornado's by being in the corner of their basement. So there is obviously a lot better chance of surviving one crouching in the corner of a basement than standing on a concrete slab.

[Bobby Henderson]

Basements are no guarantee. I don't know of any cities or towns that require homes to be built with basements. Housing is already too damned expensive as it is without mandating expensive extras like basements and/or storm cellars. With the weather technology we have today combined with mobile technology it's actually much easier to give people a lot of advanced warning. If I know a bad enough storm is about to mow through a specific location and I have enough time to react I'm going to be more inclined to get out of the storm's way rather than hunkering down.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Basements are no guarantee. I don't know of any cities or towns that require homes to be built with basements. Housing is already too damned expensive as it is without mandating expensive extras like basements and/or storm cellars. With the weather technology we have today combined with mobile technology it's actually much easier to give people a lot of advanced warning. If I know a bad enough storm is about to mow through a specific location and I have enough time to react I'm going to be more inclined to get out of the storm's way rather than hunkering down.

Basements sure provide a whole better chance of surviving..... And you are right about basements not being required. I never stated that, I just stated that I never lived in a house that didn't have one...

[Marcel Birgelen]

I've seen pictures of people surviving in some steel box above ground, even after a direct-hit EF5... I don't know if I'd wager my luck on that though... The whole thing also looks pretty claustrophobic even though I don't really suffer from claustrophobia in the general sense...

Based on intuition alone, I'd say that a thick concrete basement would probably be a better protection, but without empirical numbers those arguments are hard to make. Stuff like flooding and being trapped by debris may be a larger risk factor in a basement than in an above-ground shelter.

I think I'm lucky we've never seen anything heavier than an EF2 around here, but apparently, freak EF4 and EF5 tornadoes do sometimes happen and incidents with smaller tornadoes have increased dramatically over the last 25 years over here.

Regarding earthquakes... I think the 5.8 magnitude quake that happened about 28 years ago in the region around here was an eye opener. While in many regions a 5.8 earthquake may be considered a fart in the wind, it did considerable damage and it was only pure luck it didn't kill anyone. I guess this also has lead to a shift in how new structures are built. While in the past putting up a cinder block wall was sufficient for many load-bearing structures, this often is no longer the case and steel or concrete reinforcements are often required.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

I've seen pictures of people surviving in some steel box above ground, even after a direct-hit EF5... I don't know if I'd wager my luck on that though... The whole thing also looks pretty claustrophobic even though I don't really suffer from claustrophobia in the general sense...

Based on intuition alone, I'd say that a thick concrete basement would probably be a better protection, but without empirical numbers those arguments are hard to make. Stuff like flooding and being trapped by debris may be a larger risk factor in a basement than in an above-ground shelter.

I think I'm lucky we've never seen anything heavier than an EF2 around here, but apparently, freak EF4 and EF5 tornadoes do sometimes happen and incidents with smaller tornadoes have increased dramatically over the last 25 years over here.

Regarding earthquakes... I think the 5.8 magnitude quake that happened about 28 years ago in the region around here was an eye opener. While in many regions a 5.8 earthquake may be considered a fart in the wind, it did considerable damage and it was only pure luck it didn't kill anyone. I guess this also has lead to a shift in how new structures are built. While in the past putting up a cinder block wall was sufficient for many load-bearing structures, this often is no longer the case and steel or concrete reinforcements are often required.

Yes, there are armored steel storm boxes one can be safe in, but they are not at all common around here. Bobby's idea of getting the hell out of there is also quite dangerous, Just a year ago we had a big tornado go through the north end of Nashville. This thing was an EF4 and was on the ground for over a half hour. Lots of people caught video of it. Thing is, if you try to drive away from it you will likely be stuck in traffic where everyone else is also trying to flee from it. Getting back to the tornado's here a year ago. There was not JUST the one Nashville tornado... there were four more across the northern part of the State at the same time, all pretty much in line. The Nashville tornado hit the NW corner of Nashville then traveled across town all the way to Mt Juliet. A distance of about 30 miles...

[Bruce Cloutier]

I had a thought once about getting a place in a more tropical location but with disasters like hurricanes and such we too often see images from those places that are way too scary. Western Pennsylvania is pretty benign along those lines. But I had an idea to get a surplus submarine like an old U-boat or something and bury it in the backyard in a place like that. All you would see is the conning tower. Then the place could totally flood over and, well, we'd still be partying.