JNIOR Corner

[Marcel Birgelen]

One thing in common though, cinema or not, is that professional installers still prefer to deploy stuff in a 19" rack. . It's not just because a 19" rack is a "work of art", as some of them start like one and inevitably change into a work of compromises over the years, but it's more like standardization and having a location to put "technical stuff". So, it either needs to fit on a DIN-rail inside a box or cabinet that can be closed or in a 19" rack.

A real "power relays" module would be great to have, but there are other solutions to it. Sometimes it's better to concentrate on what you're good at. We have a few directly on modbus. Sometimes you need to switch some heavy loads and I don't like putting relays in a chain, as it increases the risk of one getting stuck and it also increases delay.

I guess stuff has changed in the last 20 or so years, because I remember plastic being much more expensive in small to medium quantities than most metal works, because plastic requires expensive molds to be made while thin metal sheeting could simply be done by laser-cutting and some coating afterwards. In the end, the 19" rack-mountable JNIOR would only require a face-plate made from metal. The rest could probably be made from plastic, although metal obviously gives a more high-quality feel to it.

I do see a lot of applications of the JNIOR in other areas, especially in the area of office automation and maybe even professional home automation. You're never going to compete against those cheapo wireless gadgets in this market, nor won't you be able to compete against Nest, Ring and all the other privacy-invading stuff the big tech companies are dumping in our homes, but there is a whole market for more robust solutions.

Semi-professional and professional show control is also still an interesting market without too much players. What you should have though, is something like a simple scripting language and something like a simple interface builder like Alcorn McBride offers. If you also manage to put it into a 19" box, theme parks, all kinds of day attractions are obvious customers and I know some are already using it for some small-scale applications. But right now, nobody is going to run Splash Mountain on a single JNIOR yet.

[Carsten Kurz]

Keep in mind, there is a DIN rail option for the JNIOR, and many building-side installations are common to end or start in DIN rail wall boxes with it's many options to house relays, timers, breakers, terminal blocks, etc.

- Carsten

[Bruce Cloutier]

There are JNIORs going into Disney properties. They are die-hard PLC users but are learning that there are some advantages to the JNIOR here and there. Teledyne runs entire smoke stack air monitoring systems with a JNIOR. They have, I think, 4 products based upon it. They private label which is a little bit of a pain for us.

Kevin abd Tony have been developing the Tasker application. It is a replacement for Task Manager. When you mention simple scripting, that comes to mind. If you are looking to do something a little outside of triggering cinema macros, you could look at Tasker. We will be demonstrating it at CinemaCon if anyone is there to see it. There is info on-line and those guys can easily be prodded into a Webex demo. I believe that with the JANOS v2.1 release we will start shipping units with the Tasker application installed.

My home HVAC has two humidifiers. The evaporator type does just about nothing. So I installed a steam humidifier. That brings the humidity right up but costs in electricity. It also makes a bit of an annoying boiling water sound that you can hear at night. We setup a JNIOR to monitor humidity and activate the steam humidifier only when it gets too dry and never between 10PM and 8AM. We run Tasker on that JNIOR which also has 5 temperature sensors. The HVAC system uses a heat pump coupled with geothermal wells. So Tasker runs and takes periodic temperature readings of the plenum, both sides of the air handler heat exchanger and both inlet and outlet water temps. Then Grapher runs providing some nice graphics as to what is going on. I thought about that when you guys were discussing light box cooling systems. The temp probes are easy to install.

As for plastic... With 3D CAD and CNC milling being what it is, the cost of molds has come way down compared to 2 or 3 decades ago. Most of the cost is in the quantity of steel the mold requires. So the larger the part the more expensive the mold. Once you have a good injection mold you can bang out parts very inexpensively. You have to be smart about the part design though. If you are lucky there are standard unit molds that provide cooling and support for a simpler mold section for the part itself. But... you need to do quantity. That is hard to commit to before you build confidence that the product will move.






T

[Frank Cox]

I know absolutely nothing about 3d printing, but isn't that what 3d printers are supposed to be for? Individual pieces or small runs of special-purpose plastic parts. Got an order for six boxes? Hit 6, press start, come back after lunch.

Isn't that how it works? Again, I know nothing about it but that's the impression that I have....

[Marcel Birgelen]

I guess professional 3D printing is now catching up to become affordable for mid-size production batches, but last time I checked it still wasn't really there. I'm not going to use our "hobby" SLA machine as a reference. That one would take like half a day to print anything like a single JNIOR case. (Then that same part needs another half a day or so to cure in UV light...)

I don't know how many JNIORs Bruce sells, but given the margin on those products, I doubt that 3D printing the case for production units would make sense.

Like Bruce mentioned, CNC has made quite a few steps forward in the last decades and that will obviously have a positive effect on making plastic molds. I know that CNC is actively being used for the production of roller coaster and other attraction parts for example. Those parts have a very limited production run, compared to e.g. car parts and you can't run a dedicated production street for every of those parts. Many of the stuff that used to be welded together, needed to be cut by hand on a lathe, or even needed to be cast in a mold can now be cut from a block of steel by a machine.

Keep in mind, there is a DIN rail option for the JNIOR, and many building-side installations are common to end or start in DIN rail wall boxes with it's many options to house relays, timers, breakers, terminal blocks, etc.

Well, yeah, but practically, I can mount a cow onto a DIN rail, that doesn't mean it really conforms to the form factor.

The PLCs we use all neatly fit into it and have their connectors at the places you expect them to be. Most PLCs also don't have that many I/O ports. The biggest problem with PLCs is the convoluted, old-school way you need to program them. While we converted most Ladder Logic stuff into Structured Text, it feels a bit obnoxious and communication with the "IP world" is often very convoluted and backwards.

Kevin abd Tony have been developing the Tasker application. It is a replacement for Task Manager. When you mention simple scripting, that comes to mind. If you are looking to do something a little outside of triggering cinema macros, you could look at Tasker. We will be demonstrating it at CinemaCon if anyone is there to see it. There is info on-line and those guys can easily be prodded into a Webex demo. I believe that with the JANOS v2.1 release we will start shipping units with the Tasker application installed.

What I mean with "scripting" is an environment that most sane people with some grasp of logic are able to comprehend. Programming PLCs is not one of them, as it really requires quite an in-depth knowledge of those things. This "Tasker" thing sounds interesting and maybe it comes "close enough". This is how Alcorn McBride implements their "scripting", it's all pretty old-school stuff and hasn't seen any real updates in years and their WinScript windows app still seems to be some 16-bit app. But most people I show this, can program a show within a few hours. Try to do the same with a PLC and you'll start tearing your hairs out pretty quickly.

But maybe you should put up a little tutorial of how to control your HVAC with Tasker.

One thing you could beat any stuff from Alcorn McBride and your average PLC, is by the fact that your stuff allows for far better integration with modern stuff the rest of the world actually uses... as in your stuff understands JSON, HTTP and even MQTT.

[Sean McKinnon]

I would love a 4ROUT that was sized to just handle dry contacts as the 10amp capacity is usually a waste. I did run into that addressing issue when trying to control two expansion modules from Q-Sys lets just say that there now there may or may not be an unauthorized modified version of the jnior plug-in in the world that uses JSON to get the module id's and send the pulse commands to the correct module....

[Bruce Cloutier]

Here's the original 4ROUT. I just happen to have one on my desk and connected. It is not in production, I guess, because someone led us to believe the the 10A SPDT Power 4ROUT was all that you guys wanted.

This points out maybe a bigger problem. How can we find out what you actually need and would buy? How do you find out what we have available or are willing to do for you? We can't design something and then ever sell only 5. It is very frustrating. All of the traditional marketing channels have been destroyed by spammers. You get so much crap that you feel like an idiot if you take even a moment to look at any of it. e.g. Do you answer the phone when it rings? There was a day (albeit decades ago) that you would run from out in the yard for fear of missing a call when the phone in the kitchen rang. Now the phone in my pocket rings and I don't want to be suckered into even looking at it. I'll check messages later when I get really really bored. Besides my car warranty might be expiring and I really need to know about it!

Original_4ROUT.jpg

Uh... did I mention frustration?

[Sean McKinnon]

I do suppose that the 10A SPDT version accommodates both uses so its kind of makes sense it just seems like overkill for some of the stuff i have used them for.

[Steve Guttag]

Here's the thing, there are uses for 10A and low-current relays in our industry. I use 10A relays for:

• Turning projectors on/off
• Turning servers on/off (more so on the older "box" servers but still on a NAS or a separate storage unit).
• Turning exhaust on/off (often controlling a contactor rather than direct)
• Turning Sound on/off (controlling a contactor)
• Old-time drapery machines (including masking and grand drape) that run 120V control lines.

For low-current relays, those are for things like:

• Dimmers (you'll use 3-5 of them right there and if there are 2-4 channels, that scales out, depending on the system.
• Controlling GPIO stuff on other equipment...like Barco's "Off-mode" on the SPxK series.
• If there are low-voltage control devices in the system, they'll use the low-current relays.

So yeah, I need both. If the 10A relays are absent, then it has to be augmented with a relay on my end (perhaps a Relay In a Box "RIB")...but now there is more work on the installation, more space needed for the automation system and it looks more kludgy.

What may be the case is that the installer that is thinking JNIOR is not thinking about controlling the higher current/voltage stuff as much as the Ethernet and just a handful of low-current things, including dimmers. The package that the JNIOR comes in doesn't "scream" full or large automation system. It looks like a goesinta and goesouta. Its mounting options has me think it is something that would be used as a patch or adapt to do something else. Now, one could mount it in a chassis, put the needed relay sizes in there and bring all of that out to terminals for a more finished look but again, someone has to do that. It isn't ready out of the box to do all of that stuff.

I, honestly, couldn't tell you what everyone else in the industry is doing and where the investment should be. I can only speak to how I put in systems and I use both high current and low current relays in most every installation. I know installers that just use the GPO from the server to deal with the lights and again, use the server to control whatever may be necessary on the sound...no automation altogether. We sell a a remote-in support service and being able to remotely power up equipment (or down) is essential so just using GPO of a server doesn't cut it. Furthermore, servers get changed out a bit more frequently than other gear so the less I depend on it for custom installation, the better. I already have my configuration files for interacting with the automation for the servers we use so that part normally goes pretty fast. I'm putting in a new server tomorrow and it is already configured for the automation as fast as I FTPed a file to the server...seconds...done.

I'd say, poll the people that use your automation already, particularly the ones that use them in quantity and on practically every installation and see what it is that they really are having to work around. Most people would rather have you make it than have to fabricate it themselves. I will say that on the eCNA line, they used to have two 10A relays each (both models) with the balance being low-current. Then they switched it to half-and-half...sort of. On the 5 it was 8 and 8, on the 10, they added the 10A relays via the aux board and the option of the 5's I/O board(s). Someone, other than us, must have wanted the high-current relays too and we have definitely taken advantage of them.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Here's the original 4ROUT. I just happen to have one on my desk and connected. It is not in production, I guess, because someone led us to believe the the 10A SPDT Power 4ROUT was all that you guys wanted.

This points out maybe a bigger problem. How can we find out what you actually need and would buy? How do you find out what we have available or are willing to do for you? We can't design something and then ever sell only 5. It is very frustrating. All of the traditional marketing channels have been destroyed by spammers. You get so much crap that you feel like an idiot if you take even a moment to look at any of it. e.g. Do you answer the phone when it rings? There was a day (albeit decades ago) that you would run from out in the yard for fear of missing a call when the phone in the kitchen rang. Now the phone in my pocket rings and I don't want to be suckered into even looking at it. I'll check messages later when I get really really bored. Besides my car warranty might be expiring and I really need to know about it!

You can't blame your (potential) customers for them telling what they would ideally expect from you. It's not their business to make it profitable.

But, finding out what you customers want and what leads to a sustainable product really is the core of doing business... which isn't always easy and unfortunately also for a great part simply based on dead luck and keeping on trying.

I once had a chat with a product developer of a pretty successful Dutch company that produces frozen snacks that are usually prepared by either frying them or putting them into an oven. Some of those snacks have become somewhat of a second identity for Dutch "cuisine". He made it abundantly clear that for every successful product in the market, they had at least 10 failures. Some of their bigger hits started out as some seasonal tryout and nobody believed it would've gone anywhere. His point was that despite all kinds of expensive market research, customer input from all across the market, product design committees and whatnot, the only thing that would consistently work is just keep on trying with new stuff and see what sticks. Sure, you should be intelligent about what you try and how you try it, in order to save cost and maximize revenue, but simply be prepared that most of your new products will be duds.

I think this guy did really have a point. I don't know if in reality it is as bad as that just 10% sticks, but I guess in business you have to factor in failure into anything new you do. Still, you can't sit still and rest on your laurels, because the world around us moves faster than ever, even with this pandemic going on.

[Carsten Kurz]

I would usually prefer to have the heavy load stuff on my own DIN rail based relays. Simply because there is more variation in what you need on the load side, and it's easier e.g. to replace a single DIN rail relay or other component than a JNIOR 10A extension box.

[Bruce Cloutier]

Well, it has always been a question as to the 'right' mix of I/O. Almost every new application requires a different set. The original JNIOR series had analog onboard.

Talking to the customers sounds like an easy thing. It really isn't. We get purchase orders through email and speak to no one. In that case generally it is only the person doing the buying who may not really know what the equipment is for. Sadly, we have to have a conversation with accounting people on occasion. Techs call for support and are full of information but often are not those making the design decisions (or at least buying decisions). I could go on and on and really won't solve anything. All I can tell you is that most of it was not an issue say 30 years back.

Things are also not so clear cut as to whether a product is a great success or a "dud". In our case it takes more than several weeks to get a product design into production. The gamble being how much to produce. Make too little and you really have to price the product too high or look at it as a loss-leader. Once you have the product no one really knows about it and with this stuff has to otherwise wait for a need to come up.In the real early days we had a stack of 400 JNIORs that sat in the warehouse for almost a year (when Kodak backed out of the market). How long do you wait before declaring a dud?

The 412DMX is a good example. There was a lot of buzz about DMX for cinemas. I think 5 years ago we built 250. At that quantity and it being the first run they were expensive. We haven't built them since. We move maybe 2 per month. Dud? Should I build it again? It is a difficult decision. I hear that a lot of bids mention DMX but when the install comes along it is dropped for being too expensive. Really, how do you assign a value to it?

Personally, I would go right ahead and fill a catalog with umpteen different product flavors. The investment is immense to do that. It is feasible when business is rolling. Not so much after a global pandemic. Which by the way doesn't seem to be quitting.

What we can do though, is make the product we have as capable and reliable as we can. We keep it generic so as to invite its use in any market. And, pray. We stand behind the product. We can resolve any (repeatable) issue. Well, even some not so repeatable but that process requires a bit of mind numbing conviction. You don't get that from any of the big corps. Am I wrong?

BTW, 1 in 4 purchase orders that come in are spam. Some not so easily detected. If you order, it really is a gamble that we have enough control to stop our fingers from hitting the DELETE key as we likely have for the past 20 email items and will for the next 20. I would prefer going back to having folks mail (like with an envelope and stamp) their POs. Actually, you can use our FAX too.

Fall back on old tech... reminds me of Battlestar Galactica.

[Steve Guttag]

Just spit balling here. I wonder if you created a Cinema I/O box that uses a production JNIOR if it would get traction. That is, find out how people, in cinema, are using the thing or where they think it is lacking. Then that one product item can be in the "cinema package" and it covers most bases. The fact that it may have relays to control masking that not everyone has is of no consequence (other than the added cost of the unit to cover them) but I'd presume such things could be re-purposed. Again, i'm looking for a wall mounted box with the relay I/O that would interact with other people's stuff like the exhaust, sound rack...high voltage, in particular, but it could include drapery and dimmer. Let that all be wired up by the Electrician on well labeled terminal blocks...then just plug the automation's communication cable (RS232/485 or even Ethernet)...it would be something that makes the installation go faster. And, if you can get those boxes put into the architectural drawings, it could start selling itself and be the leader to placing JNIORs...just a thought.

[Bruce Cloutier]

Back in the day (circa O.J. Simpson trial, 9-11) I was involved with HVAC and we marketed our controls in part to the architects. Getting spec'd into the drawings was a good thing. I wonder though when it comes to cinema design how much beyond accommodating projection and sound standards/requirements they get? I've always had the opinion that the facility gets designed and someone negotiates the big ticket items, but getting it all to play together is the work left to the integrator (and likely last minute). For the most part the systems get along but usually there are a few things that need to be coerced. That's where a flexible device like the JNIOR comes in. We can create an interface when there is none. Stuff like that.

We don't have a relationship with any one theater chain so as to be designing to a set of specs. The only certain way, given the vacuum that we work in, to get to a more cinema-esque design would be to take something like the eCNA-10 and build product to heads up compete against it. I am not so confrontational. Something to be more synergistic with the ACT might make sense. In this case we need to fill a hole left behind by the thing (um... literally). Not so much emulating the workings of it but more the physical arrangement and I/O count.

Frankly, right now we need to get business back up and running like in the "before-time". Our hands are somewhat tied until we can build our staff back up and get on with it.

[Steve Guttag]

Since you say you will be at CinemaCon...and I see a theatre architectural firm like JKRP is going to be there...maybe it's an opportunity. As for a head-to-head confrontation...that isn't needed, particularly in a cinema automation. But since your product is inherently not industry specific, that is why I said to make an I/O box that IS industry specific (it could be used by others but the type and quantity of I/O, not to mention the termination would lend itself to cinema). The, you are just providing a easy means of integrating into cinema by making it more plug and play.

The eCNA line, which started as a film automation (eCNA-200, which was a film automation is the start of where the eCNA-10 began by having a more Digital Cinema centric I/O. Then the eCNA-5 was more generic, smaller/cheaper. The eCNA200 was the replacement to the CNA-200 (no Ethernet) and the CNA-200 had lesser versions the CNA-100 and CNA-150 (which was built for Regal's needs)...before that was the Ultimation 2000 and CPA-10 (Strong's OEM model number)...so there was a line of progression but nowhere is it more stark than on the eCNA-200 where the technology literally overlaps. To this day, one can drive an eCNA-200 I/O board with such popular relays as "Motor" and "Xenon Lamp." They just had to change the I/O board, really, to make the eCNA-10 and they also changed the user controls to again, reflect what people would now want. Towards the end of film, when digital cinema was certainly eminent but not quite here...we put in the eCNA200 to bridge the gap and when it happened, the transition was easy.