Coronavax experiences?

[Leo Enticknap]

So, there we go from coronavax to train disasters.

Sorry! Veering off topic is a bit of a weankess of mine.

Eschede is fresh in my memory, because I had to do a screening support call (basically, playing projectionist for a show at a VIP private residence), from which I got home at around 3am on a Sunday morning, a couple of weeks ago. Couldn't just shower and go straight to sleep (I'd just driven 150 miles, had been guzzling coffee and Coke to keep me alert and safe to drive, and so needed a wind down hour), and so asked Amazon Slime to show me whatever it had for an hour or so downstairs. It came up with a documentary series called What Went Wrong, one of the episodes of which was about the Eschede crash. Agreed, the death toll would have been in single figures had that bridge not been in the way. I remember the disaster being covered in the British news media (where I was living at the time), but I'm not sure that they truly understood just how many were killed and badly injured. That period (late '90s to early '00s) saw a lot of rail disasters in Great Britain and Western Europe: Ladbroke Grove, Eschede, Hatfield, Selby, and I think there was one in northern Spain around that time, too. All but Eschede resulted in deaths and serious injuries in the single figures, which I suspect caused the British news media not to understand just how horrible the Eschede crash was.

[Bobby Henderson]

Of course a lot of the confusion in all of this has stemmed from the fact that the experts are learning on the fly and putting out information as they figure it out, and then having to backtrack when they find out they mis-interpreted something. The biggest one is probably the whole "you must disinfect every single surface any time someone so much as walks past it" practice which (I would be willing to bet) has largely been scrapped in almost everywhere except maybe restaurants.

This all goes back to the conundrum I mentioned earlier, where too many people in the media and general public expected the scientists and doctors to know the entire encyclopedia on the SARS-CoV-2 virus and COVID-19 disease the moment it was discovered.

Scientists and medical experts have been forced to walk on eggshells in their interactions with the press. It's bad enough that they get stuck in contradictory dilemmas such as where and when mask wearing should be required and when mask wearing mandates can be dropped. The experts are constantly stuck trying (hopelessly) to cover their asses. That's all thanks to the media always looking to oversimplify and emotionally amplify every development in a news story. And if there is ever a chance to stir up controversy the media won't pass up that opportunity. When the experts learned the SARS-CoV-2 virus is more often spread through the air rather than contaminated surfaces there was hell to pay over it. "They're lying to us!!!!!!"

I'm no genius, but I understood why medical experts and scientists had their prevention strategy centered around fomite transmission in the beginning of the pandemic. It's what we're used to seeing with the common cold, influenza and various other contagious diseases. When they learned more about the virus and changed their outlook about masks it made sense to me. I'm sure much of the public felt the same way. SARS-CoV-2 is a "novel" virus after all. But some people lost their shit over the change in tune. And certain outlets on TV and the Internet capitalized on it. Some elected officials have made hay over the "controversy" to get themselves more publicity.

The next biggest may be the whole plexiglass thing, which probably cost the country billions of dollars in un-needed plexi which is now being removed at a rapid pace, at least around here anyway. Even Disney is starting to take plexi dividers off of some of their attractions.

I think there is some value in a sneeze guard. But if a group of people with no immunity to SARS-CoV-2 are in the same room together they're going to be more protected by wearing masks. They'll be far more protected by getting vaccinated.

[Carsten Kurz]

I still remember the ICE high-speed train derailment in Germany, back in 1998

That Eschede accident is a perfect example against your back-of-the-train theory, a description of the quite complex happenings can be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_derailment

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenb...#Unfallverlauf

It actually started below the FIRST carriage, and then went on towards the end of the train assembly. Some people had been very unlucky. Some very lucky - just 2 minutes before another fast-train had passed the same position in the opposite direction - it was one minute early, while the ill-fated train was one minute late - otherwise, on schedule, they would have met at that bridge - hard.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

That doesn't surprise me: what surprises me is that they survived until 2020! Haven't seen any in West Coast airports. I'm pretty sure that smoking in an indoor public place in California is now totally illegal, anyways.

The accident my former co-worker was involved in was a strange one. A car went off a freeway adjacent to the track (because its driver fell asleep at the wheel), skidded down an embankment, and came to rest on the rails. The train hit it, and everyone apart from the engineer survived the initial impact. However, that impact caused some of the carriages to derail onto another track next to it, which were then hit by second train coming in the opposite direction, almost instananeously . That second collision was the cause of most of the deaths and injuries. If I remember correctly, the combined impact speed of the second train's locomotive hitting the jackknifed wreckage of the first crash, which was still in motion, was well over 100mph. It was the carriages towards the center of the train that had the highest casualty rates.

Another footnote to that accident was that it gave rise to what the Guinness Book of Records believed to be the biggest auto insurance claim ever made, at the time at any rate. The various victims involved (relatives of the dead, the injured, the train operating company, etc. etc.) tried to recover all their costs related to the accident from the driver's insurer, which totaled more than half a billion.

Well, in Utah they don't want them standing outside and smoking either. So I imagine other cities also try to shield smokers from Non Smokers...

Your friend was very lucky to survive that.... Here is an interesting newsreel of a train snowed in on Donner Pass in the early 1950's. I can remember a 60 minutes piece back in the 1980's they did on this with some of the survivors that said the porters wanted to hand out glasses of whiskey as that's all they had after running out of food. The Whiskey will make you feel warm, but the reality that a doctor on board said that it makes you feel warm, but does nothing to elevate your body temperature. Everyone drinking it would have likely froze to death feeling ve4ry happy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG59X7bMDpA

[Marcel Birgelen]

So, there we go from coronavax to train disasters.

I guess one argument against any one place being the safest place on the train, is that there are safety systems in place that usually manage to avoid "standard situations" like a front or rear-end collision and like Leo's example, many of those deadly accidents do happen if things go horribly wrong in unforeseen ways.

I still remember the ICE high-speed train derailment in Germany, back in 1998 that claimed 101 lives. In that case, it started as a derailment that became a complete disaster, after the train hit a bridge, which then collapsed and caused much of the train to run into the collapsing bridge at full speed. The first few carriages and the engine escaped completely unharmed, while the rest of the train literally piled up in front of the now destroyed bridge. If it weren't for that bridge, the entire thing probably would've ended with just a few bruises and some lessons learned about wheel design.

Still, besides the first few cars, which escaped pretty much unharmed, most survivors were in the back end of the train in this case...

[Leo Enticknap]

Leo, Those smoking rooms have been there since the 1970's at least.

That doesn't surprise me: what surprises me is that they survived until 2020! Haven't seen any in West Coast airports. I'm pretty sure that smoking in an indoor public place in California is now totally illegal, anyways.

The accident my former co-worker was involved in was a strange one. A car went off a freeway adjacent to the track (because its driver fell asleep at the wheel), skidded down an embankment, and came to rest on the rails. The train hit it, and everyone apart from the engineer survived the initial impact. However, that impact caused some of the carriages to derail onto another track next to it, which were then hit by second train coming in the opposite direction, almost instananeously . That second collision was the cause of most of the deaths and injuries. If I remember correctly, the combined impact speed of the second train's locomotive hitting the jackknifed wreckage of the first crash, which was still in motion, was well over 100mph. It was the carriages towards the center of the train that had the highest casualty rates.

Another footnote to that accident was that it gave rise to what the Guinness Book of Records believed to be the biggest auto insurance claim ever made, at the time at any rate. The various victims involved (relatives of the dead, the injured, the train operating company, etc. etc.) tried to recover all their costs related to the accident from the driver's insurer, which totaled more than half a billion.

[Randy Stankey]

My guess is that it would be mostly random.

In a collision, either from the front or back, the trail will accordion. Some cars will be pushed off the track, hopefully out of harm's way. Some cars will be crushed.

It may be just as likely that a car at the back of the train will survive as the car right behind the locomotive will be untouched. (Relatively speaking.)

Sure, there are factors that can change the outcome... Front-end collision vs. rear-end collision. A simple derailment. A train taking a curve too fast. A trestle collapse. Hitting a stationary object that wasn't supposed to be in the way.

Of course, one can make educated guesses and have a good chance of being right but, sometimes, there's just no telling what will happen.

Yes, if a train collides from the front, common sense tells me that the back is the best place to be but, if a trail derails and rolls over a cliff it's "bye-bye baby!"

[Marcel Birgelen]

Somehow this brings me back to a discussion I had about 20 years ago during a lengthily train ride with a random guy I met in the same train compartment. We were discussing were it would be, generally speaking, safest inside the train. Not being blessed by the availability of always-connected Internet back then, we concluded that the safest location would probably be in the back of the train. The theory was as follows: Anything that could hit a train would most likely start at the front and any energy that would emanate from such an event would dissipate alongside the length of the train, leaving a chance it has dissipated to such a level, it doesn't do anymore lethal damage, once it reaches you, in the back of the train. It still makes some sense to me, but I've never checked if it matches with the statistics... they probably indicate that 90% of all lethal train-accidents are rear-end collisions. :P

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Changing planes in Atlanta a few months ago, I noticed that they had a smoking room in the terminal that was sealed with a double airlock door (the outer one wouldn't open unless the inner was closed, and vice-versa), with large window walls, so you could see inside as you walked past. The room was probably around 20x30 feet. It was absolutely packed, and the gray haze in there made it look like the San Quentin gas chamber! But it was certainly effective in containing the smoke: I couldn't smell anything as I walked past. In the last few years in which smoking was allowed on British trains (late '90s / early '00s), the smoking carriage was at the very back or front (so a non-smoker would never have to walk through it) and similarly sealed. Diverging from the topic sightly, a co-worker of mine survived this train crash, but the person she was traveling with did not. Upon boarding the train at York, her co-worker wanted a coffee, and headed straight to the restaurant car. She wanted a cigarette, and so went to the smoking carriage at the back. She escaped unhurt; but her co-worker was killed (as were some others who were standing in line in the restaurant car when the train derailed). She later commented that she must be one of the very few people in the world for whom smoking extended her life rather than shortened it.

Leo, Those smoking rooms have been there since the 1970's at least. I started going through Atlanta on Eastern Air Lines in the mid 70's going to Miami to go SCUBA in the FL Keys I remember them being there then, ditto for O'hare in Chicago. I can also remember being the only person riding Atlanta to Chicago on an L-1011 on a very late night flight. Now that I look back, that was pretty darn cool. Salt Lake Silly also has had smoking rooms about 20 X 30 in size for as long as I can remember. Can't answer for the west coast, even though I have been through many airports there dozens of times.

[Leo Enticknap]

...she's a smoker and upon entering a restaurant with plexi up asked..."can I smoke now?" The policy in the restaurant is no smoking but, she said, with the plexi up, nobody should smell it, right?

Changing planes in Atlanta a few months ago, I noticed that they had a smoking room in the terminal that was sealed with a double airlock door (the outer one wouldn't open unless the inner was closed, and vice-versa), with large window walls, so you could see inside as you walked past. The room was probably around 20x30 feet. It was absolutely packed, and the gray haze in there made it look like the San Quentin gas chamber! But it was certainly effective in containing the smoke: I couldn't smell anything as I walked past. In the last few years in which smoking was allowed on British trains (late '90s / early '00s), the smoking carriage was at the very back or front (so a non-smoker would never have to walk through it) and similarly sealed. Diverging from the topic sightly, a co-worker of mine survived this train crash, but the person she was traveling with did not. Upon boarding the train at York, her co-worker wanted a coffee, and headed straight to the restaurant car. She wanted a cigarette, and so went to the smoking carriage at the back. She escaped unhurt; but her co-worker was killed (as were some others who were standing in line in the restaurant car when the train derailed). She later commented that she must be one of the very few people in the world for whom smoking extended her life rather than shortened it.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

I do like that Fran Lebowitz's take on the plexiglass and distancing and all...she's a smoker and upon entering a restaurant with plexi up asked..."can I smoke now?" The policy in the restaurant is no smoking but, she said, with the plexi up, nobody should smell it, right? Her point, lost on the hapless waiter was that the plexi is likely as ineffective stopping C19 from moving about as it is to stop smoke from migrating around it too.

The plexi is meant to stop direct sneezes and coughs from reaching you where ever it is installed, as breath droplets are the PRIMARY spreader of COVID.. Around here, which is the allergy capitol of the USA, having it up is indeed very good insurance as many have REALLY bad allergies. Masks are intended to have a similar effect on coughs and sneezes and higher grade masks can catch 90+ percent of the droplets you emit.. Same as jeans will stop you from peeing directly on someone else. You have to take your jeans off in order to douse that person down.


"Coronavirus disease is a respiratory illness that can spread from person to person. The virus is thought to spread mainly between people who are in close contact with one another (within about 6 feet) through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs or sneezes."

-Johns Hopkins Info

[Steve Guttag]

I do like that Fran Lebowitz's take on the plexiglass and distancing and all...she's a smoker and upon entering a restaurant with plexi up asked..."can I smoke now?" The policy in the restaurant is no smoking but, she said, with the plexi up, nobody should smell it, right? Her point, lost on the hapless waiter was that the plexi is likely as ineffective stopping C19 from moving about as it is to stop smoke from migrating around it too.

[Mike Blakesley]

I have also never seen, around here, anyplace that disinfects a spot that people have just walked past.

I was being sarcastic.

But I do think the plexiglass in stores is mostly useless because of two things: (1) They've proven that the virus floats around in the air like smoke, so it can easily go over, under, around plexiglass and stays in the air for a while. And I would say that about 90% of the interactions I've had in plexi-equipped stores, the plexi is too small to cover the entire air-space between me and the cashier, and a lot of the transaction takes place with no plexi between us at all.

And (2), which partly contradicts (1), that if you're only in close contact with somebody for a couple of minutes, you're not likely to load up enough virus to get sick. So in a store setting, plexi doesn't really do any good (under that theory, at least).

But hey, I'm a projectionist, not an epidemiologist.

But the prevailing wisdom seems to say that the bug doesn't really come from surfaces very much after all, but more from the air. That's why CinemaSafe has backed off on the protocol to clean all theater seats between every showing.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Of course a lot of the confusion in all of this has stemmed from the fact that the experts are learning on the fly and putting out information as they figure it out, and then having to backtrack when they find out they mis-interpreted something. The biggest one is probably the whole "you must disinfect every single surface any time someone so much as walks past it" practice which (I would be willing to bet) has largely been scrapped in almost everywhere except maybe restaurants. The next biggest may be the whole plexiglass thing, which probably cost the country billions of dollars in un-needed plexi which is now being removed at a rapid pace, at least around here anyway. Even Disney is starting to take plexi dividers off of some of their attractions.

Things around here have pretty much returned to normal, except at the theater we are still buffering one seat on each side of any group of people. I feel like it's more to keep the worried people satisfied than anything.

Well, Yes and no. There have been other pandemics that we learned from in the past, both in this country and in others going all the way back to the early 1900's. What they are learning on the fly now is how the Coronavirus affects us individually and how to best combat it. Deaths of people infected have declined as experience treating it moves forward.

I have also never seen, around here, anyplace that disinfects a spot that people have just walked past. Only if a spot gets used or sat in. Then it sure as heck should be disinfected and in restaurants it absolutely is. You have no way of telling IF a person is carrying it, has had it, or not and if they have been vaccinated or not. So until the time arrives when you can tell all that, the areas used must be cleaned. Many places here, including the USPS, Aldi and Kroger Food Stores have kept the plexi up, so has Baskin & Robbins and they may continue to do so until more is learned about the COVID variants.The only place I know that has removed Plexi here is the State Legislature House and Senate areas.But Republikkkans and Freedunb seekers in the legislature here don't believe in science anyway... so... let them catch a variant of COVID and learn the hard way.. It's still very much out there and to get nonchalant about it could be extremely unpleasant.

[Steve Guttag]

Bobby,

The CDC lists cinemas in the riskier groups, which may or may not be politically driven but that is the medical community. And while I've never claimed cinemas to be risk free (or any other activity), I've claimed that they are on the low-risk side because...there is zero evidence that they are risky. It isn't misleading because there is no evidence to the contrary.

As for you lumping earlier statements in and feeling that it applies to an entire discussion, that is on you. My words were more precise than that. I stated where I felt that the medical community was contributing to the problem, gave examples and moved on. I stated that WE seem to be okay with people dying in greater numbers/year over essentially lifestyle choices but you chose to reach back and dismiss WE and instead harp on one aspect of the earlier discussion and apply it to a different discussion...that is on you.