Are you gonna get an electric car anytime soon? (Or do you already have one?)

[Joe Redifer]

As the Ford Pinto episode demonstrated, ICE-powered vehicles have the potential to do that as well.

Yeah? What about cars with EXTERNAL combustion engines? Do we really need to indicate "internal"?

[Leo Enticknap]

Without wanting to pick a fight or have this come across as a personal attack in any way, I am somewhat triggered by someone claiming they've been driving for decades without ever having been involved in an accident; though I understand that in this context, it's directly relevant to a discussion of insurance prices (of which more in a mo). Such a claim seems to me to be analogous to someone claiming that they are 85 and have never been inside a hospital since the day they left the maternity ward. Good lifestyle choices can be a big part of the reason why, but good luck is an equally big part of the reason. Applied to driving, someone who spends most of their life in a rural area and only has to drive 8-10K miles a year stands a much better chance of achieving half a century of accident-free driving than someone who, like me, is required to drive 30-40K miles a year for work alone, and furthermore has to do so on some of the busiest, congested, and accident prone roads on the planet.

I was in five accidents between 2016 and 2022, none of them my fault. The first was caused by someone changing lanes while I was in her blind spot without her checking it first, and side swiping me. Thankfully it was on a 40mph city street and there was nothing more than property damage. The repair bill for my car (Honda Fit at the time) came to $5K. The second was at a T-junction at which I was waiting to turn left out of a side street. The other driver made a right onto the side street from the main road, misjudged the turn, veered into the left turn lane in which I was waiting, and his front driver's side hit the front passenger's side of my car as he made the turn. That was a $3K bill. The third was the nastiest: someone turned left into an intersection across my path when I had the green light going straight across, and I hit her at around 30mph after braking as hard as I could (the limit was 45 and I was well within it when I saw her start to turn and hit the brake). I ended up with cuts and bruises (mainly from the airbag), and her with broken ribs. Both cars were totaled. Thankfully, I had dashcam footage to prove that I had the green. The fourth was vehicular sodomy while waiting at traffic lights. The speed of impact was barely walking pace: new bumper cover needed, at $750. The final accident, in March 2022, was the weird one. As the garage door was opening, the jackscrew seized, the spring broke, and two sections of the door detached and fell, causing dents and dings to both my and my wife's car, and taking out my wing mirror. The bill came to around $10K total for the cars and the door, with a long battle and paperwork to determine whether homeowner's or auto insurance would cover the door (unsurprisingly, each tried to claim that the other was liable).

I contend that absolutely no amount of due diligence on my part could have prevented any of those accidents. I'd even sprayed garage door lube on that spring and jackscrew every six months or so during the five years between when we moved in and its failure. This is why "I've been driving for [insert number of decades here] and never been in an accident" tends to raise my blood pressure a bit.

Where this is relevant to insurance costs is that even for the party judged to be not at fault, the insurer incurs costs that they cannot recover from the party at fault. For the most serious accident (the one that put me in the hospital, if only for a few hours, and totaled my car), the other party only had $5K of third party coverage (the California legal minimum), and I had uninsured loss coverage. My insurer likely had to eat all the other costs. So even if you have driven for many years without being involved in an accident, if you live and drive in an area in which either the accident rate is relatively high, or in which the costs of recovering from accidents are relatively high (e.g. hospital fees, or the hourly labor charge for auto repair techs), or both, then that will filter through into your annual premium hikes.

As for EV insurance, my neighbor decided to replace her car last fall. After a lot of research, she narrowed it down to a Nissan Rogue vs. a Volkswagen ID4 (electric). She was quoted $1,800 a year to insure the Rogue vs. $3,100 for the electric Volkswagen. Third grade math was enough to show that the insurance cost alone was enough to wipe out the energy cost saving on the electric, so she bought the Nissan.

[Harold Hallikainen]

Our car insurance (Subaru Crosstrek) went up 23% last year, and another 23% this year. Changed insurance companies and knocked it back down. In more than 50 years of driving, I've never had an accident or filed a claim.

[Geoff Jones]

Anyone looking into an EV should check with their insurance agent.

Insurance for my Kona is the same as for my other two cars.

Insurance for Teslas definitely seems to be much higher, which makes sense, considering the issues with those cars.

Car insurance has been rising considerably across the board, for all types of cars. Part of this is due to the fact that repairs are more expensive. A bump on the fender now means you have to replace a back-up camera. Part of this is also do the fact that cars themeslves are more expensive. Manufacturers are focusing on more expensive models and making far fewer entry-level vehicles.

[Leo Enticknap]

As the Ford Pinto episode demonstrated, ICE-powered vehicles have the potential to do that as well. The difference is that we have a century and a quarter's experience of mitigating and managing down the risk (of uncontrolled ignition) incurred by sitting in close proximity to up to 20 gallons of gasoline. We're still at a much earlier stage with BEVs, and I suspect that the risk won't be managed down to a level that most would be comfortable with until li-ion and li-poly are in the rear view mirror, and more stable battery chemistries have gone mainstream.

What Lyle saw explains, I suspect, why insurance costs for EVs are so much higher than those of their ICE-powered equivalents: accidents involving them tend to be a lot more pricey.

[Lyle Romer]

This is the first time I've seen this thread so I'll answer the question, even though it's old...

EVs need better range and faster charging before I'll be interested. Like, really fast charging... 5 minutes for at least 300 miles. Then hell yeah I'll be interested. Oh, and I'd prefer a battery type other than Li-ion. Like.. maybe one where if they catch fire, they can actually be extinguished? Maybe it's just me but I kind of like it when fires can be stopped... does that make me weird? Am I just a silly goose? And completely unreasonable? No, I don't think so. Until then, EVs can go get fukt.

Also, yes I already have an iPad (mini) and no I do not plan on getting an Apple Watch or any other kind of watch.

I witnessed a fatal Tesla fire near my home a few years ago. The driver was going significantly over the speed limit and veered off into the median and hit a tree. The battery ignited and, when I got to the area fire rescue was already on scene. The guy was trapped but still alive. The fire couldn't be extinguished and it was too hot for rescuers to attempt to get him out. I'm in agreement that I'd prefer not to drive around in something that has the ability to burst into an unextinguishable inferno.

[Leo Enticknap]

I typically drive between 500 and 1,000 miles a week on service calls, to a total of between 40K and 45K miles a year. Most of my daily trips (70 to 100 miles each way, so 140 to 200 total) would be just within the advertised range of most of the EVs that are being marketed as replacements for regular sedans and SUVs (i.e. not luxury vehicles), but I have to do a trip that would be significantly outside it probably 3-4 times a month. Almost none of the sites I regularly visit have EV chargers in their lots or garages as of now. The only one I've noticed that does (the parking garage above the Writers' Guild theater) has always had all its charging spots occupied whenever I've driven past them. LIkewise, on a service visit to Boise in February, I accepted a Tesla 3 from Hertz at the airport (mainly because I was too tired to resist their hard sell after six hours of flight delays). The hotel had two charging spots, and they were both occupied on all the occasions I tried to use them. I had to return the car with only a 30% charge or so left in it and pay Hertz's penalty charge to have them recharge it.

So regardless of the math still not adding up (a big emerging problem is insurance: in California, insuring an EV costs between two thirds more and double that of its ICE-powered equivalent), an EV simply would not work for my use case as of now.

[Joe Redifer]

This is the first time I've seen this thread so I'll answer the question, even though it's old...

EVs need better range and faster charging before I'll be interested. Like, really fast charging... 5 minutes for at least 300 miles. Then hell yeah I'll be interested. Oh, and I'd prefer a battery type other than Li-ion. Like.. maybe one where if they catch fire, they can actually be extinguished? Maybe it's just me but I kind of like it when fires can be stopped... does that make me weird? Am I just a silly goose? And completely unreasonable? No, I don't think so. Until then, EVs can go get fukt.

Also, yes I already have an iPad (mini) and no I do not plan on getting an Apple Watch or any other kind of watch.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Geoff,

Like I mentioned, if you are driving locally, then thats fine, plug it in at home. But a long trip is not guaranteed to be easy in any EV, where ever you live, and no matter which one you buy. Especially if there aren't an abundance of fast chargers where you choose to head, and especially in very cold weather. Before I was retired, I drove 60 to 80k miles a year. The Kia battery warranty would last me a year and a half. So for long drives, EV's and the supportive infrastructure have a very long way to go. I'm actually looking forword to Toyota's hydrogen powered vehicles. They exhaust water moisture and the infrastructure to support Hydrogen gas refills is already in place. Advancement on those is occuring more rapidly than EV support infrastructure.

[Geoff Jones]

As I mentioned, I never have to stop and plug in for charging, so having to "pay $12 USD plus at a fast charger" isn't an issue for me.

How long is the warranty

The Kona's battery is warrantied for 10 years or 100k miles.

I was born and raised in Tennessee but I got out as soon as I graduated from High School, so the fact that TN doesn't have smog tests isn't really an issue for me.

EV manufacturing certainly has environmental impacts, but any suggestion that those impacts are equal to the impact of a ICE vehicle is a false equivalency perpetuated by the oil and gas industry. The Environmental Impact of EVs vs. Gas Cars is simply not the same.

FYI to anyone out there thinking about buying a Land Rover (or a Tesla, for that matter), be sure and do your research:

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Things I love about it:............................................... ...............................The truth about it from friends that own them and also used to own them.

• The smooth quiet ride.............................................. .................So was my 2010 Range Rover, but it wasn't reliable!. I had a Ford Expedition for service trips. A Hummer H3 for off road. Both reliable!
• The fancy technology (even on the base trim)........................The Range Rover was also fancy, But it wasn't reliable because of it. Actually less reliable.
• Never stopping for gas............................................... .................But having to stop and pay $12 USD plus at fast chargers to keep going. I had a ~400 mile range.
• Never getting an oil change............................................ ..........You will no doubt still have battery maintenance, and possibly electronics to keep updated.
• Never getting a smog test.............................................. ...........There are no smog tests here in Tennessee. It's only done in 35 States and territories.
• Spending less money per mile.............................................. ..Tell me how that works. You can't accurately determine that until you get rid of the vehicle.
• No tailpipe emissions......................................... ...................... But lots of other pollution from disposing the battery packs and electronics.
• .................................................. .................................................. ...Not to mention mining the lithium to make the batteries, which children are often tasked with.

As a follow up, If you have a seven to ten year old Model S, a new battery pack is 20K usd. More than the resale value of the used car. What is the cost of a replacement battery pack for your Hyundai? How long is the warranty, and how much to extend it? BTW: I was lucky to almost break even on the Land Rover when I sold it, and my wife was the one that drove it most of the time.

[Geoff Jones]

I got a 2024 Hyundai Kona EV (SE trim) in early February.

In the U.S., at the start of the year, the $7,500 federal tax credit was limited to cars made in the U.S. This caused several General Motors cars to lose eligibility, so GM offered a $7,500 discount. Hyundai matched that, offering a $7,500 discount on their EVs. So far, the discount has been renewed each month.

Colorado also offers a $5,000 state tax credit, plus an additional $2,500 for cars with an MSRP below $35k. The SE trim squeeked under that.

The Kona's official range is listed at 200 miles, but mine tends to show about 230 when fully charged. (It calculates the range based on your driving habits.)

I'm using level 1 "trickle-charging" for almost all of my charging. I just plug it into the wall outlet in the garage when I get home. It's very slow. I calculated it to be about 3 full days for 0 to 100%. But that's never my experience. My actual experience is that I drive it around town for my daily and weekly trips and never worry about range. It tends to stay around 60-80%.

Yes, the range varies due to the temperature, the number of passengers, hilly terrain, and the use of the heater, but again, for me it's a non-issue.

If I drove more, I would probably install a level 2 charger, which would provide a full charge in about 5 hours.

A level 3 public charge would get the battery from 10% to 80% in 45 minutes.

The Kona's battery is warrantied for 10 years or 100k miles.

We now have three drivers in our household, so we felt we needed three cars. The Kona is our third.

In my view, it's a no-brainer to have an EV in any household with more than one car. The other car(s) are available for road trips and the EV is prefect for daily commuting and around-town driving.

For one-car households, and for apartment dwellers, the decision is definitely not as simple.


Things I love about it:

• The smooth quiet ride
• The fancy technology (even on the base trim)
• Never stopping for gas
• Never getting an oil change
• Never getting a smog test
• Spending less money per mile
• No tailpipe emissions

Things I dislike about it:

• None so far.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Fine. As long as you don't have to drive long distances. If you do, you may have to wait for up to several cars ahead of you while they charge. Here in the USA, the infrastructure for EV's just isn't there yet. Plus, you live where it's very cold in winter. That cold is going to drastically cut your drivable range down. Have to have it towed? It'll be dragged out of it's parking spot, and then up on the back of a tow truck. Need to replace the battery? That's going to cost more than your 5 to 7 year old EV is worth. There is more, but I'll stop here...

[Jason Speers]

I'm seriously thinking about switching to an electric vehicle for my next ride. The perks of not having to hit up gas stations and cutting down on emissions are too good to ignore. Plus, the few times I've test-driven an EV, the instant power and the quietness of the ride totally won me over.

[Leo Enticknap]

We tend not to think about gasoline and how dangerous it really can be since it's so much a part of our lives. If you really thought about it, how safe do you really feel about the idea of flying down the road at 85 mph while sitting on 16 gallons of highly combustible gasoline among dozens or hundreds of others doing the same?

Mankind has, collectively, close to a century and a half of experience and learning to ensure that the combustion remains internal: in other words, that gasoline for automotive use is not ignited anywhere other than in the cylinders. Grounding systems for fuel pumps on forecourts, armored gas tanks, steel and synthetic fuel lines, and even mundane safety measures like not allowing smoking at gas stations have gradually evolved over a very long time, to the point at which gas igniting where and when it isn't supposed to is a very rare event. There were some notable failures along the way, including, infamously, the Ford Pinto scandal.

We don't have anything like that experience in managing the risks associated with very large arrays of lithium ion batteries in moving vehicles. We may decide, as with the use of hydrogen to provide aerostatic lift in airships, that those risks simply can't be managed down to an acceptable level, especially if a fundamentally different battery chemistry that is inherently less risky makes it into mass production. Alternatively, the physical protection and thermal management of these things might advance to the point at which the risk is low enough for 99.99% of the population to consider it acceptable. At the moment, it's high enough to be a significant factor going into my thinking that I'm going to wait at least 2-4 years before contemplating an EV (which I suspect is around the remaining reliable service life of my existing ICE-powered one anyways).