Are you gonna get an electric car anytime soon? (Or do you already have one?)

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

To expand on the elephant in the room that Steve just brought up...

The U.S. power grid is severely stressed and extremely antiquated in a lot of areas. It can barely cope with the current demands, and adding a bunch of EV chargers WILL push it over the edge.

I agree with those who pointed out that solar + EV is a great idea, and would make the most sense, both in eco friendly and economically.

BUT, of all the ICE cars out there, think about the percentage of current owners who can ACTUALLY afford BOTH the EV AND the costs of adding/converting to solar? That figure will be in the single digits or low double digits.

I recently priced out an off-grid, 10kw solar system and even that costs well over $14,000.00 with me doing ALL of the installation work. I think (I haven't tried to contact any of the companies as once you contact one, you get bombarded with calls, emails and texts from all of them to get quotes) my modest system installed by one of those solar companies will be over $22,000 or more. Keep in mind that a grid-tie system (that can feed power back to the grid) costs even more.

And speaking of grid tie, yet another problem with our current infrastructure is that the same antiquity means that the protection and control system for the grid can't cope with a large increase in power outside of it's direct control being fed back into the system. Some serious outages and equipment failures have already happened in a few areas due to this problem.

For the switchover to work, it MUST be done in a methodical fashion, over a time span of 10-15 years, and not pushed by legislation. The power grid, EV technology, and EV Range must ALL get significant upgrades for the complete conversion to work. I project that 2040 would be a REASONABLE goal to shoot for.

To answer the OP question, I will not be getting an EV anytime soon. I live in a rural area and even a simple grocery run can be over 100 miles round trip. I do too much driving at the current time for an EV. Plus I need the 3/4 ton truck I do drive, (RAM pickup with the 5.7, which still does 20mpg average) for work and my dirtbike.

[Steve Guttag]

Scott, I think you are seriously underestimating the power grid and home charging concerns. You example of an 8-screen movie theatre or Walmart or other commercial business is poor. What is the electric consumption per patron in those businesses? Compare that to the number of vehicles on the road and the consumption, per driver. Businesses, by comparison, will seem downright thrifty. Plugging in a Level-2 charger in your home will "feel" like running your clothes dryer for the duration of the charge (possibly all night). And that is per-car. If you are in a household like ours, that will be three dryers. And, if you are drying your clothes, that could be a 4th dryer (not for us because our dryer is gas heat). Multiply that out through a neighborhood and the night time electric use will jump MANY fold over what it was installed as.

As it is, some cities cannot supply sufficient electricity during the day and one of the major charge times will be during the day, while one is at work. How many cars in a parking garage that serves an office building or business area? The electrical impact could be HUGE.

[Scott Jentsch]

I've been watching videos about EVs, read articles about them, and driven a few of them, over the past 18 months or so. I am resolved that my next vehicle purchase will be a full EV (not hybrid), but I have not yet settled on which one I would buy today if I needed/wanted to.

The vehicle I've been the most impressed with so far is the Ford F-150 Lightning. I drove one for a day as a loaner vehicle while I was getting my Explorer maintenance done, and it was an incredible vehicle! I don't own a truck because I don't have a need for one on a regular basis, but if I could justify having a truck, this would be the one I would buy! While I was impressed by the Tesla Model Y from a technology standpoint (Tesla has the best tech, as being the most experienced in the segment), but I found it very lacking as a vehicle that I would want to drive. Stiff suspension, uncomfortable seats, and an aesthetic that was much to minimal for my taste. If it were $35k, I could overlook such things, but not in a $70k vehicle. I've ridden in a VW ID.4, and it's OK. Very much a $35,000 class of small SUV (it actually costs more than that, but that's where I would slot its value proposition). The software is very lacking compared to every other vehicle I've been in or driven. However, I have no doubt that it's a very serviceable vehicle for what it is.

If were to buy an EV today, it would be a Ford Mustang Mach-E. While not a perfect vehicle by any stretch, it's the overall winner so far in my book. It's more stylish than a Tesla Model Y (personal opinion, of course). The software is pretty good, and will probably improve over time (but not guaranteed). As an actual vehicle that someone needs to drive, the Mach-E has been the best overall package. I have yet to try out a Hyundai Ioniq 5 or Chevy Bolt EUV, nor have I looked at any of the more expensive vehicles from Audi, Porsche, etc. because they just aren't something I would ever imagine paying for, no matter how cool they might or might not be.

Most of the concerns that have been expressed here are understandable, but not always based in fact. Fortunately, there is a wealth of information out there about all these topics if you're interested and/or concerned about them.

EV battery packs have been found to last longer than their 8-10 year timeframe where they hold more than ~80% of their original charge. Most EV models have long warranties on the battery packs, on the order of 8 years (again, easy info to find if that's a concern).

The recycling industry is just now forming around reusing and recovering battery packs from EVs, so it's not like they're going in a landfill somewhere. The lithium can be recovered and reused in new packs. (I'm not completely versed on the details of this, but once again, the information is out there for the interested observer).

Range needs vary for everyone. While one person may do just fine with a vehicle that has 50 miles of range, another might need 600 miles of range. It's unrealistic to think that all EVs should satisfy the needs of the 600-mile people, if those cases represent a statistically insignificant portion of the marketplace. The presence of EVs do not negate the presence of gas vehicles, just as the presence of gas vehicles does not negate the presence of diesel vehicles. Some people would like everyone to believe that the choice is binary, when it's actually additive. If the EVs currently available do not satisfy one's range needs, then there's no reason they have to buy one. It will be many many years before gasoline disappears altogether, if ever.

Winter range vs summer range is also well documented. As is towing range. Pick an EV you're interested, go to YouTube, and search for that model and "winter range" or "towing range" and you'll find some very well-done videos showing exactly how far that model can get driving on the highway. For example, a Tesla Model Y AWD is EPA rated for 330 miles. InsideEVs performed a 70mph highway range test and found that it was good for just over 275 miles in 80-90 degree temps. The linked article references a well-known YouTube channel as getting 253 miles in 100+ degree temps. One report I found showed that a Tesla Model Y dual motor (AWD) long range (2020 with heat pump) went 221 miles in 19 degree temps. Lots of data out there.

Your mileage may vary based on how warm you like the cabin, how much you use the heated steering wheel and seats (perhaps instead of or in priority over the cabin heat), your speed, etc.. All the EVs that I'm aware of can be pre-heated/pre-cooled while still plugged in, so you can tell it that you leave for work at 7am, and when you unplug from your home charger, the car is conditioned and ready to go, and the battery hasn't been used to get it there.

Concerns about "will the grid support EVs" are overblown, in my opinion. Sure, if the entire country suddenly gave up every gas/diesel vehicle they owned overnight and replaced it with an EV, there might be issues. There are so many ways to overcome any concerns about grid load, such as time-of-use charging, so you can schedule your charging overnight when usage is lower. This is going to vary by region and situation. With the recent Virtual Power Plant events in California, people with Tesla Powerwalls are actually helping the grid support itself by injecting power back into the grid. Isn't technology amazing?

Another note about grid concerns: how much power does an 8-screen movie theater require? Has anyone ever heard of someone saying that "the grid" can't support a movie theater, or a WalMart, or any other large-load business? I don't know what the planning is like for such projects, but I would be curious to know how they compare to a DC fast charging station.

If your house can't handle a 50A charger, then install a 40A or 30A charger. It will take more time to charge, but you've probably got all night anyway. Sure, not all homes are going to have even enough capacity in their panels to handle a 30A charger, but if you're getting by with a 100A panel or you're maxing out your current service in some other way, you're going to run into the need to upgrade at some point anyway. What would you do if you wanted to install air conditioning and you didn't have the service for it? You'd bite the bullet and upgrade your service. Or, don't buy an EV and keep using gas. No one's stopping you from filling your specific needs with the vehicle that's right for you and your situation.

The ultimate (albeit expensive) solution is to have solar panels that charge home batteries (e.g. Powerwall), so you can not only power your home's needs and keep power during a power outage, but you can charge your EV. How cool is it to essentially be creating the power you need to drive your car? Try that with gasoline!


Speaking of movie theaters, I see this as an opportunity for theaters to provide level 2 chargers (~20-30A) to customers, either as a profit center or as a loyalty member reward or some combination. If someone is going to be at the theater for 3 hours, they could get around 75 miles of charge while doing so. The systems are available to provide access on a fee basis, as well as codes for free charging that could be dispensed at will to your most loyal customers. If you could get $5 or $10 profit added for that customer, would you?

Like I've said, there is so much content about EVs that you couldn't possibly read it all. Pick a subject and do a search. The information is out there. Plenty of YouTube channels have done range tests, road trips, cross-country road trips, overnight camping, etc. as well as extensive first-person testing of chargers, accessories, and more.

Here are some to start:

• State of Charge - lots of testing of chargers, vehicle range tests, etc.
• EV Buyers Guide - lots of vehicle tests by the guy that does Alex on Autos
• Out of Spec Reviews - more vehicle tests and reviews of ADAS ("self-driving") systems
• InsideEVs - plethora of EV news, information, etc.

[Lyle Romer]

Daily Wail



Those are the five "gotcha" words. I see a story like this - reporting the invention of a battery technology that overcomes lithium ion's shortcomings when used in EVs - probably once every month or so, but none of them ever seem to make the jump from being achieved in the lab to being achieved on the production line. Fingers crossed that Xin Li and his team, plus one or two competing technologies to create a healthy, competitive market, can do this.

How many years now have we been reading about lithium air batteries? As Steve said above, the 3 minute charge makes no sense. At the end of the day it takes X kW to drive Y miles. You can only practically and cost effectively get so much power into the vehicle over a period of time. If you designed the battery pack to handle it, you could charge a lithium ion pack in 3 minutes but you'd probably need 100 kV DC to get enough power in without needing such thick cables that they'd be heavy to carry.

[Steve Guttag]

When I read the 3-minute charging time...I'm curious...just how big was that battery? That would be an incredible charge rate because, at the end of the day, you are still having to get coulombs of electrons from here at my power source to that battery over there. The most basic law of electricity is power (in) = power (out). Presuming that the vehicle still has its power demands, one is going to still need that much charge, perhaps in a smaller storage if it is that much more efficient. How long would it take to charge a card/truck sized battery.

Hopefully, they are successful in scaling this sort of technology. It would put the hurting on EVs though. If such technology is "just around the corner," so to speak, who would want to invest (heavily) in an EV that is about to have significantly obsolete batteries with a charge burden and range limitations?

[Marcel Birgelen]

Daily Wail



Those are the five "gotcha" words. I see a story like this - reporting the invention of a battery technology that overcomes lithium ion's shortcomings when used in EVs - probably once every month or so, but none of them ever seem to make the jump from being achieved in the lab to being achieved on the production line. Fingers crossed that Xin Li and his team, plus one or two competing technologies to create a healthy, competitive market, can do this.

That's exactly my problem with those reports too and that's why I generally tend to ignore them nowadays... We've seen countless of those stories for years now. Breaktrough technology here, breaktrough technology there... Many of them requiring no or far less lithium, mega-fast charging, tenfold the energy storage, etc.
It's seemingly less apparent to make it from some lab-scale model into something that can get into millions of production vehicles.

Still, there is some significant development being achieved, especially in the last 15 or so years. Two decades ago EVs were mere toys, whereas modern EVs come with reasonable ranges and astonishingly fast charging options. The problem I see though, is that anything that seems to be viable right now is still dependent on lithium and It's already hard to find sufficient lithium to drive all the world's mobile batteries... let alone sufficient lithium to power all our cars, busses, trucks and even homes...

[Leo Enticknap]

Daily Wail

'Game-changing' new battery for electric cars charges in 3 minutes and lasts for 20 YEARS - more than twice as long as current EV batteries

A 'game-changing' new battery for electric vehicles (EVs) that charges in three minutes and lasts for 20 years could soon be coming to new cars.

Adden Energy, a start-up based in Waltham, Massachusetts, has been granted a licence and $5.15 million in funding to build the battery design at scale to fit in EVs.

The battery, developed by Harvard scientists, is lithium metal, rather than lithium ion found in EVs that are already on the market.

Its intricate design, inspired by a BLT sandwich, prevents the growth of troublesome 'dendrites' that grow in lithium-metal batteries and shorten their lifespan.

Currently, EVs contain lithium-ion batteries that degrade over time and last up to seven or eight years, depending on how much they're used – much like a smartphone battery.

These lithium-ion batteries can be replaced, but they can cost thousands of pounds, meaning drivers are often better off buying a whole new EV.

But this new solid-state, lithium-metal battery can increase the lifetime of EVs to a comparable length to petrol and diesel cars – up to 20 years – without the need to ever replace the battery during this time.

In the lab, the team's battery prototype has achieved battery charge rates as fast as three minutes with over 10,000 cycles in a lifetime.

The new technology has been created by Xin Li and colleagues at Harvard John A. Paulson School of Engineering and Applied Science (SEAS).

Adden Energy was co-founded in 2021 by Li, along with William Fitzhugh and Luhan Ye, both of whom contributed to the development of the technology as graduate students in Li’s Harvard lab.

The startup aims to scale the battery up to a palm-sized 'pouch cell' – which has components enclosed in an aluminium-coated film – and then toward a full-scale vehicle battery in the next three to five years.

'We have achieved in the lab 5,000 to 10,000 charge cycles in a battery's lifetime, compared with 2,000 to 3,000 charging cycles for even the best in class now, and we don’t see any fundamental limit to scaling up our battery technology,' said Li. 'That could be a game changer.'

Lithium-metal batteries hold substantially more energy in the same volume and charge in a fraction of the time compared to traditional lithium-ion batteries.

But they're prone to the formation of 'dendrites' – tiny, rigid tree-like structures that speed up battery failure.

Researchers have therefore tried to harness the potential of solid-state, lithium-metal batteries, using a unique BLT-inspired design.

Those are the five "gotcha" words. I see a story like this - reporting the invention of a battery technology that overcomes lithium ion's shortcomings when used in EVs - probably once every month or so, but none of them ever seem to make the jump from being achieved in the lab to being achieved on the production line. Fingers crossed that Xin Li and his team, plus one or two competing technologies to create a healthy, competitive market, can do this.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I'm surprised that they didn't go to heat pumps on day 1. Once you have an AC system...the heat pump is just a reverse of the cycle (which is what makes them so attractive for home heat and the energy put into a heat pump compared to resistive heat really slants towards heat pump. There are few things as power hungry for heat as resistive heat.

I guess that someone ran some calculations and decided it's not worth the extra "ducting". Resistive heat is only useful in case of a cold start, otherwise, there are sufficient hot items in almost any car as a source of heat for the cabin.

[Jim Cassedy]

This is a continuation of my famous "Are You Gonna Get" series, in which previous
entries (on the old board) have included "Are You Gonna Get an Apple Watch?"
and "Are you Gonna Get an iPad?" and one or two others I can't remember.

I've been waiting for "Are you going to get Monkey Pox?" or something similar...

[Steve Guttag]

I'm surprised that they didn't go to heat pumps on day 1. Once you have an AC system...the heat pump is just a reverse of the cycle (which is what makes them so attractive for home heat and the energy put into a heat pump compared to resistive heat really slants towards heat pump. There are few things as power hungry for heat as resistive heat.

I'm wondering when they'll move to a buck/boost type converter to go from "Doc Brown's Mr. Fusion" down to 12V using the main batteries. I would presume they are already using one to charge the 12V battery.

[Buck Wilson]

I'm curious if there have ever been any wintertime EV tests, especially with towing. I've never heard of any - and I'm sure the industry is not going to emphasize anything that's going to make EVs "look bad," but it's definitely a valid concern. I'm curious how much range a person would get if it's 10 degrees outside, considering you not only have to run the car but also generate heat. (And hopefully there's a way to warm up the cab before jumping in, which is the main reason people in this part of the country leave their cars idling for 10 minutes or so before they take off.)

Yes, there's definitely a huge hit for towing and/or winter heat use. Half or more of the range in extreme cases. But that is the nature of the beast... there is much less energy stored in an EV battery than there is in a tank of gas, full stop. So any situation that decreases your efficiency makes a bigger dent in the range of an EV than it does for a gas car. Things are improving though, EVs are getting heat pumps for heat to drastically reduce that energy demand.

And yes, as far as I know, you can 'precondition' any EV (including my 11 year old PHEV) before you leave while it's still plugged in to keep from losing that range before you even leave your driveway. You can even do it in a closed garage!

[Buck Wilson]

I'm very surprised about that. Are you sure the full EVs have a 12V? For hybrids they kept the 12V battery mostly because they were the same car (except the Prius and Volt) as the gas only version so it was easier to keep the same 12 V architecture. From an engineering perspective I don't see why you'd need a 12 V battery to supply 12 V power to electronics and accessories. If there's a 12 V battery in there, they still have to step down the main battery voltage to charge it. Why not just feed all the 12 V stuff off the same stepped down supply?

Yep. I don't know if it will always be that way, but that is the case for now.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...olt-batteries/

Notable quote-

But powering up the stereo does not require 800 volts. Nor would you want that coursing through every circuit in the car, for a variety of reasons. Safety, for one.

We asked Hyundai's EV engineers why the 12-volt battery persists, and Ryan Miller, manager of electrified powertrain development, responded. "All the ECUs in the vehicle are powered from the low voltage, as well as the power relays that separate power from the high-voltage battery pack and the rest of the high-voltage network in the car," he said. "That separation allows us to safely disconnect the high voltage from the low voltage when the vehicle is not being driven or in the event of a crash." You don't want first responders to contend with door locks powered by Doc Brown's Mr. Fusion.

[Mike Blakesley]

I'm curious if there have ever been any wintertime EV tests, especially with towing. I've never heard of any - and I'm sure the industry is not going to emphasize anything that's going to make EVs "look bad," but it's definitely a valid concern. I'm curious how much range a person would get if it's 10 degrees outside, considering you not only have to run the car but also generate heat. (And hopefully there's a way to warm up the cab before jumping in, which is the main reason people in this part of the country leave their cars idling for 10 minutes or so before they take off.)

[Lyle Romer]

EVs still have a 12v battery and use 12v for most everything, it’s safer and more cost effective than having the 360+v main battery and associated high voltage wiring running things like map lights and window motors.

I'm very surprised about that. Are you sure the full EVs have a 12V? For hybrids they kept the 12V battery mostly because they were the same car (except the Prius and Volt) as the gas only version so it was easier to keep the same 12 V architecture. From an engineering perspective I don't see why you'd need a 12 V battery to supply 12 V power to electronics and accessories. If there's a 12 V battery in there, they still have to step down the main battery voltage to charge it. Why not just feed all the 12 V stuff off the same stepped down supply?

It would probably be OK, but there are a lot of people who wouldn't go for it. Lots of scenery seekers want to do it on their own time, in their own way, at their own speed... which requires a car. I would hate to be stuck on a train going through some scenic area and not be able to pull off the road and take a walk around. People are also picky about what time of day they travel. They want to see the mountains at sunrise or the ocean at sunset, for example, or drive through a wildlife area in the evening during the mating season for moose or elk, or get up close and personal with a buffalo jam (which is fun, if un-nerving).

I wouldn't mind a train ride if I had a fairly short journey with a long stay at a destination at the end of it, but if I'm going exploring in any way, I prefer to drive. Our "travel yardstick" has almost always been, if we can drive it in a day, we drive -- because it takes about a whole day to fly anywhere from where we live, thanks to us being 100 miles from the airport and 500-1000 miles from there to any of the "hub" cities. Driving is more entertaining, more comfortable, about a quarter of the cost, and takes about the same amount of time as flying for a journey anywhere up to about 500 miles.

Years ago we did an Alaska cruise and at the end there was a rail trip from Anchorage to Denali. I said right afterwards that if I ever did the trip again, I'd much rather drive the scenic route than take the train.

[Jon Dent]

As of this morning a tentative deal has been reached to avert the rail workers strike (after more than 20 hours straight of negotiations). I didn't know these guys weren't getting basic things like any paid sick leave. Rail companies have shed thousands of workers and posted record profits, but it sounds like they've been treating their employees like cattle. The trucking industry is hardly any better at all. Long haul trucking is already a difficult enough job if you're an owner-operator. But it can be a really shitty job if you're a driver working for a trucking company. It is no accident why the trucking industry has a severe shortage of drivers. Many employees take the jobs and quit a short time later due to what turns out to be terrible pay and terrible/dangerous working conditions.

An American company makes record profits and treats their employees like shit? No way!