Are you gonna get an electric car anytime soon? (Or do you already have one?)

[Lyle Romer]

Leo, you make a good point. Any per mile charge would have to be based on an odometer that is read once a year or something like that and ABSOLUTELY NOT a GPS that actually tracks routes driven. It is certainly possible to make an odometer that can't be tampered with. You can simply use one time writeable memory and write 1 bit for every mile driven. You'd only need 125 kB for 1 million miles recording capability.

Either there will have to be some kind of mileage based road tax or registration fees will have to be raised somewhat significantly and States will have to pay part of the registration fees to the Federal Government.

But, don't you think that, if there was some killer solution out there, the oil companies would buy up all the patents, build a secret laboratory in the style of Area-51, somewhere in the middle of nowhere to develop the a workable product then, when perfected, exploit their monopoly for as long as they can?

They only have 17 years to do it until the Patent expires!

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Leo... You are correct! That's why so far, it's just a flat fee in addition to the cost of the license plate fee. If States charged by the mile , they would have to form entirely new departments to do the tracking and billing for that. While now, they just add a flat fee for your EV. And it's easy for the States to raise or lower that fee as necessary.

[Leo Enticknap]

I believe that political resistance to a pure pay-per-mile approach will likely be greater than Bobby anticipates, at least in the USA, because it threatens the status of the automobile as a symbol of personal freedom and mobility, which has existed and grown since the 1950s, and because so much of the nation's infrastructure has been developed over that timescale on the assumption that everybody owns one. Growing up in a suburb of London, England, in the 1970s, families that did not own a car were perfectly normal, including many that were wealthy enough to do so if they wanted to. In contrast, I can think of only one person I've met since emigrating to Southern California 11 years ago who didn't, and that wasn't for very long: she moved from New York, and it only took her a few weeks to discover that it was practically impossible to survive without one, even living right in the middle of downtown LA. Even couples who share a single car between them are unusual.

So the idea that the government is going to put a device in your car that tracks every mile you drive scares a lot of us deeply, as does the prospect that a pay-per-mile (not directly linked to energy consumption) scheme will result in us paying more overall than taxation of road fuel did. In regions where that long term infrastructure development forces a lot of the population into long-haul commutes, those fears are amplified.

The political class knows this, which is why I suspect that no mainstream politicians that I am aware of are publicly advocating pay-per-mile. This is in stark contrast to Europe, where it is being discussed openly. I read a story in the British media a couple of weeks ago reporting that the civil service is actively lobbying the government to begin preparatory work to replace fuel duty with pay-per-mile, and is making no secret about it.

As Bobby points out, roads are not free: as against, in most nations that impose a gas tax, little or none of that tax is ringfenced for road maintenance. Most or all goes into the general government pot. My prediction is that they'll find another way to make up the shortfall, e.g. increasing the use of road tolls, and/or annual registration fees that build the previous fuel duty cost in, averaged out assuming typical mileage figures per driver.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I'm considering installing this one on my car. It's even a flashy red version and even comes with a wall-mount...


s-l1600.jpg

[Randy Stankey]

Doc Brown brought us Mr. Fusion in the 80's but Big Oil bought the patents and destroyed the plans!

But, don't you think that, if there was some killer solution out there, the oil companies would buy up all the patents, build a secret laboratory in the style of Area-51, somewhere in the middle of nowhere to develop the a workable product then, when perfected, exploit their monopoly for as long as they can?

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Um, Lyle, my post back up a ways lists the States that have already implemented a road tax on EV's. The amounts differ per State, but those amounts can change to meet the needs as EV use rises. Charge stations also charge extra fees on each charge cycle to cover their maintainance costs... This has been going on a long time. Utah implemented theirs back when I was still living there, over 8 years ago.

[Lyle Romer]

100% agree with Bobby. If EVs gain mass acceptance, there will have to be some kind of mileage based federal and state tax that is roughly equivalent to the gas tax per mile.

Another issue with EV range is that to get the max range requires being charged to 100%. However, charging to 100% degrades the batteries. If you charge to 100% often then the max range will be noticeably reduced. Also, if you are driving a long distance it will likely be at highway speeds which will lead to probably 20% lower than the published range since the published ranges are based on mixed driving where the city profile takes advantage of regenerative breaking.

It is true that over time a gasoline engine (or diesel) will wear and lose efficiency and range, it's not as big of a deal when it takes 5 minutes to fill up back to 100% range vs. 1/2 hour or more.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

I'm surprised the EV fees to make up for loss of gasoline taxes isn't higher.

The federal gasoline tax is 18.4¢ per gallon (a rate that has not changed since 1993). Oklahoma's state gasoline tax rate is 19¢ per gallon; only 4 states have lower rates. Oklahoma raised its rate by 3¢ in 2018, the first increase since 1987. The total tax per gallon here in 37.4¢. That's a pretty cheap rate compared to many other states (especially California). But it still adds up. I'm paying a few bucks in taxes every time I fill up my pickup truck.

That's not to suggest I think the gasoline tax rates should be lower. There is no such thing as a free highway. Highways do not build and maintain themselves for nothing. The cost is typically paid either through fuel taxes or tolls. It takes a lot of money to even maintain a city street. The cost of road building and maintenance has seen very serious price inflation over the past 20+ years. Yet the federal gasoline tax has remained unchanged since the early 1990's.

Most states have been very slow at raising their gasoline tax rates. That leaves funding for new highways and maintenance of existing highways at deep deficit levels. Other kinds of infrastructure, such as sidewalks and bike paths are sometimes drawing from the same limited pool of funding. The only thing that can make up the difference are special funding packages, often at the federal level.

Electric vehicles are a wild card in this situation. Currently there doesn't appear to be enough of them on the road to make a big difference in gasoline tax revenue streams. If battery technology can advance enough to make EVs truly practical and affordable then the fuel tax system will have to be completely overhauled. Lithium-Ion batteries are important for many kinds of devices, but I don't think they're so great in electric powered vehicles. I don't know if Carbon-based batteries or something else would be better. I drive 600 miles from Lawton to Colorado Springs on a somewhat regular basis. Making that kind of road trip in an EV would be a giant pain in the ass.

Oklahoma has over 600 miles of turnpikes. Lots of people in this state demand the toll gates should be removed. "The roads are paid for!" If the toll gates were removed Oklahomans would see one hell of a gasoline tax price hike. Money for maintaining those turnpikes (as well as building new ones) has to come from somewhere. By the way, the tolls on Oklahoma's turnpikes are a bargain compared to the rates on most other toll roads. If you have a PikePass or compatible toll tag you'll pay roughly half the license plate pay rate.

If Americans switched to using EVs we would have to come up with some new method for funding road maintenance and improvement. One possibility is a massive proliferation of toll tag readers posted on highways and even city streets. Another is simply taxing motorists on a per mile basis.

Bobby, what people always forget about is road maintainance, upgrades and that entire sections and bridges sometimes have to be replaced. It's very likely that a high percentage of the tolls collected are going towards that. But if we had followed the Roman's road design...

[Bobby Henderson]

I'm surprised the EV fees to make up for loss of gasoline taxes isn't higher.

The federal gasoline tax is 18.4¢ per gallon (a rate that has not changed since 1993). Oklahoma's state gasoline tax rate is 19¢ per gallon; only 4 states have lower rates. Oklahoma raised its rate by 3¢ in 2018, the first increase since 1987. The total tax per gallon here in 37.4¢. That's a pretty cheap rate compared to many other states (especially California). But it still adds up. I'm paying a few bucks in taxes every time I fill up my pickup truck.

That's not to suggest I think the gasoline tax rates should be lower. There is no such thing as a free highway. Highways do not build and maintain themselves for nothing. The cost is typically paid either through fuel taxes or tolls. It takes a lot of money to even maintain a city street. The cost of road building and maintenance has seen very serious price inflation over the past 20+ years. Yet the federal gasoline tax has remained unchanged since the early 1990's.

Most states have been very slow at raising their gasoline tax rates. That leaves funding for new highways and maintenance of existing highways at deep deficit levels. Other kinds of infrastructure, such as sidewalks and bike paths are sometimes drawing from the same limited pool of funding. The only thing that can make up the difference are special funding packages, often at the federal level.

Electric vehicles are a wild card in this situation. Currently there doesn't appear to be enough of them on the road to make a big difference in gasoline tax revenue streams. If battery technology can advance enough to make EVs truly practical and affordable then the fuel tax system will have to be completely overhauled. Lithium-Ion batteries are important for many kinds of devices, but I don't think they're so great in electric powered vehicles. I don't know if Carbon-based batteries or something else would be better. I drive 600 miles from Lawton to Colorado Springs on a somewhat regular basis. Making that kind of road trip in an EV would be a giant pain in the ass.

Oklahoma has over 600 miles of turnpikes. Lots of people in this state demand the toll gates should be removed. "The roads are paid for!" If the toll gates were removed Oklahomans would see one hell of a gasoline tax price hike. Money for maintaining those turnpikes (as well as building new ones) has to come from somewhere. By the way, the tolls on Oklahoma's turnpikes are a bargain compared to the rates on most other toll roads. If you have a PikePass or compatible toll tag you'll pay roughly half the license plate pay rate.

If Americans switched to using EVs we would have to come up with some new method for funding road maintenance and improvement. One possibility is a massive proliferation of toll tag readers posted on highways and even city streets. Another is simply taxing motorists on a per mile basis.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

If that $108 is supposed to be the registration fee for the average EV in California, then it's dirt cheap. I just paid $310 to renew the registration on my 2018 Honda.

That is in.addition to the usual registration fees. They are making up for the shortfall in gas tax that EV's cause .

[Leo Enticknap]

If that $108 is supposed to be the registration fee for the average EV in California, then it's dirt cheap. I just paid $310 to renew the registration on my 2018 Honda.

In response to Mike's point, the market share that EVs have has not yet gotten large enough to force the issue, but if and when it does, it's going to be a "third rail" for the politicians: namely, replacing the gas tax with pay-per-mile. Polling and market research has consistently shown that motorists oppose pay-per-mile so strongly that it would be likely to motivate people who have never voted in their lives to do so, even if the proposal included completely abolishing the gas tax.

The opposition is for two reasons: (a) the belief that we'll end up paying more overall, and (b) the need to install tracking technology in our cars to enforce pay-per-mile. So even governments that rule over one-party states with long-term supermajorities (e.g. in California) have been reluctant to go there. So far, at any rate, the proportion of EVs on the road is small enough that the loss of gas tax revenue isn't a big enough figure to cause a serious problem. But if their stated goal of getting ICE-powered vehicles off the roads and into the history books comes anywhere close to becoming a reality, it will be. Last year (per Google), California raised $6.5 billion in gas taxes out of a $220.5 billion total tax take: about 3%. That might not sound like much, but losing it would add significantly to an already growing deficit.

My guess is that if and when the time comes, they'll try to make up the shortfall by taxing something unrelated or only partially related, and less politically sensitive (maybe charging out-of-state vehicles a daily fee to drive in the state, and/or expanding the use tolls on SR freeways?). But they won't be able to kick that can down the road forever.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Anytime something comes along that "lowers taxes," watch out -- because the government can't possibly run on less money. It always needs more. So if they start losing out on gas taxes due to EVs, they will have to make it up somewhere, if not in electricity taxes, then somewhere else. People always think this politician or that one is going to save them money but that hardly ever happens.

Many States assess other fees to EV's to make up for road tax losses. They are generally yearly fees in addition to the normal yearly license plate fees. Call it a road tax, EV tax, or what ever. Since almost all States charge road tax in as part of gasoline sales, they have deemed other fair ways to get the same tax out of EV's. This list is what States are charging EV's these days. I do not know if extra fees are also added on at fast charge stations or not. Perhaps someone here does know.

• Alabama: $200
• Arkansas: $200
• California: $108
• Colorado: $51.88
• Georgia: $213.70
• Hawaii: $50
• Idaho: $140
• Illinois: $100
• Indiana: $150
• Iowa: $130
• Kansas: Up to $70
• Kentucky: $120
• Louisiana: $100
• Michigan: $145
• Minnesota: $75
• Mississippi: $150
• Missouri: $105
• Nebraska: $75
• North Carolina: $140.25
• North Dakota: $120
• Ohio: $200
• Oklahoma: $110
• Oregon: Up to $91
• South Carolina: $60
• South Dakota: $50
• Tennessee: $100
• Texas: $200
• Utah: $130.25
• Virginia: $120
• Washington: $150
• West Virginia: $200
• Wisconsin: $100
• Wyoming: $200

[Mike Blakesley]

Anytime something comes along that "lowers taxes," watch out -- because the government can't possibly run on less money. It always needs more. So if they start losing out on gas taxes due to EVs, they will have to make it up somewhere, if not in electricity taxes, then somewhere else. People always think this politician or that one is going to save them money but that hardly ever happens.

[Leo Enticknap]

Admittedly, (a) this article only covers the UK, and (b) it only looks at one of the costs of running a car (fuel), but even so...

Running an electric car is twice as expensive as a petrol one

Return trip from London to Penzance costs £148 for electrics vehicles compared to £77 for petrol cars as prices at roadside chargers surge

Henry Bodkin
Senior reporter
20 September 2024, 1.46pm

Running an electric vehicle (EV) can cost more than 24p per mile, while a diesel vehicle is 12.5p.

It costs as much as 80p per kilowatt hour to charge an EV using a rapid or ultra-rapid device on the roadside, according to data from the app ZapMap.

A typical electric car will travel 3.3 miles for every kWh of electricity used, meaning rapid and ultra-rapid chargers currently cost the equivalent of 24.1p per mile, calculations by The Times suggest.

Slower chargers cost 16.4p per mile.

This is around double the average diesel car, which will do 43 miles per gallon, resulting in a cost of 12.5p per mile at current prices. A typical petrol car costs 14.5p per mile, according to the analysis.

A return journey from London to Penzance would cost £148 in an electric car using rapid chargers, the Times said, compared with £77 in a diesel car and £89 using petrol.

It added that at-home charging is much cheaper at less than a third of the price of the average rapid charger.

ZapMap found that prices at rapid chargers have increased 5 per cent over the past year, despite a 30 per cent decrease in the wholesale cost of electricity.

This has coincided with a fall in the price of oil.

Even drivers who choose slower public chargers – the threshold is 50 Wh of power, allowing a full recharge in around 30 minutes – are paying more per mile than petrol and diesel drivers.

There was a 40 per cent increase in the number of rapid or ultra-rapid charging stations across Britain, bringing the total to more than 12,500.

However, recent figures show sales of electric cars have significantly slowed.

They account for 17.2 per cent of all new registrations since the beginning of 2024. This marks a decrease from the 18.7 per cent high in the latter half of 2022.

According to analysis, rapid and ultra-rapid chargers currently cost electric car drivers the equivalent of 24.1p per mile, while slower chargers cost the equivalent of 16.4p per mile.

Mike Hawes, chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers, told The Times: “It’s tough out there. Levels of demand are much, much softer.”

Sales of electric cars in Europe are performing even worse than in the UK, with figures showing registrations were down by 44 per cent in August.

At-home charging is normally significantly cheaper than using public points. However, a large number of households in the UK – nearly half – live in either terraced properties or flats, meaning they cannot use a driveway or garage to allow charging at home.

The AA has called for the Government to synchronise the level of VAT on chargers, which is now 20 per cent, with the rate levied on at-home electricity, which stands at 5 per cent.

Thom Groot, founder of the Electric Car Scheme, said: “We need to keep stimulating demand with incentives and supporting consumers in making the switch. The fact that people who charge at home pay less VAT than those who use public chargers is unfair.”

There is also pressure on the Government to consider cutting VAT on electric car sales or exempt electric cars from a new “luxury car supplement”.

The supplement promises to impose a higher rate of road tax to cars that cost more than £40,000.

This is expected to impact about two-thirds of electric cars.

IMHO, they would be crazy to rescind the "luxury car" tax on EVs, because it would remove the pressure on manufacturers to make them more affordable. The fact that two thirds of them cost around $55K or more is why sales of them (on both sides of the Atlantic) are falling off a cliff: very wealthy people who want one as a virtue signal now already have one (and the ability to charge it at home in their garage, meaning that they don't have to use public chargers). Most drivers who remain can't afford one, and live in apartments or small houses reliant on on-street parking.

When you then factor in other increased costs, primarily tires and insurance, it becomes clear that this technology is still a long way from being a viable mass-market replacement for the internal combustion engine.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Well said!

In 2023, a gasoline tanker fire destroyed a bridge in Philadelphia, shutting down I-95 for weeks. It took five months for the highway to resume to normal operations, according to an article published by WHYY.

Some video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q98_CL9VJEs
Screenshot 2024-08-07 at 11-58-39 Massive flames consume I-95 bridge after tanker truck crash - YouTube.png

Scott,

Imagine if that had been a Semi Truck carrying a full load of lithium batteries... Lithium batteries burn at 5K degrees F. Structural steel melts at around 2500 F. While a gasoline fire burns at about 1500 degrees F. Parts of that bridge would have disappeared into puddles of molten steel...