Are you gonna get an electric car anytime soon? (Or do you already have one?)

[Lyle Romer]

I doubt there will ever be a risk-free technology that's able to concentrate the amount of energy you need to operate a car into the space practically for a car to carry. Even the stuff used by most cars on the planet today, gasoline, while relatively stable in "room temperature conditions", comes with some special handling instructions.

If you don't cheap out on it, then lithium based batteries can be constructed and operated in a very safe manner, in such a manner that even if stuff goes haywire, there should be ample time left to get out of the hazard zone. This may require some rethinking of how we handle there thing called "car", but should not be a major nuisance, as long as we make sure the industry delivers safe products. Luckily, our governments never failed us on that one...

The problem with lithium is simply the availability. Due to the lack of similar efficient replacement, lithium based batteries made it into everything and that's where the problem is. Even if there is enough lithium left in the crust of the earth to fulfill our immediate needs, the question remains if we do want to get it there, as those large-scale operations do have the tendency to affect entire ecosystems... which in turn, may not really help the idea of battery-based cars improving ones ecological footprint...

Doc Brown brought us Mr. Fusion in the 80's but Big Oil bought the patents and destroyed the plans!

Realistically, some sort of miniature fusion reactor is probably the only way to get to a risk free technology that meets the requirements of practicality for a car since you would need to carry very little fuel for a very long range. However, I don't think we'll see that technology developed in our lifetimes.

[Scott Jentsch]

I doubt there will ever be a risk-free technology that's able to concentrate the amount of energy you need to operate a car into the space practically for a car to carry. Even the stuff used by most cars on the planet today, gasoline, while relatively stable in "room temperature conditions", comes with some special handling instructions.

Well said!

In 2023, a gasoline tanker fire destroyed a bridge in Philadelphia, shutting down I-95 for weeks. It took five months for the highway to resume to normal operations, according to an article published by WHYY.

Some video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q98_CL9VJEs
Screenshot 2024-08-07 at 11-58-39 Massive flames consume I-95 bridge after tanker truck crash - YouTube.png

[Marcel Birgelen]

In case anyone remains skeptical about claims made of the dangers of lithium ion batteries, this from the San Bernardino Sun:

I doubt there will ever be a risk-free technology that's able to concentrate the amount of energy you need to operate a car into the space practically for a car to carry. Even the stuff used by most cars on the planet today, gasoline, while relatively stable in "room temperature conditions", comes with some special handling instructions.

If you don't cheap out on it, then lithium based batteries can be constructed and operated in a very safe manner, in such a manner that even if stuff goes haywire, there should be ample time left to get out of the hazard zone. This may require some rethinking of how we handle there thing called "car", but should not be a major nuisance, as long as we make sure the industry delivers safe products. Luckily, our governments never failed us on that one...

The problem with lithium is simply the availability. Due to the lack of similar efficient replacement, lithium based batteries made it into everything and that's where the problem is. Even if there is enough lithium left in the crust of the earth to fulfill our immediate needs, the question remains if we do want to get it there, as those large-scale operations do have the tendency to affect entire ecosystems... which in turn, may not really help the idea of battery-based cars improving ones ecological footprint...

[Leo Enticknap]

Incidentally, the getaway drive scene in Drive a Crooked Road was shot on Nipton Road. It's been improved a lot since, but the movie still gives you a fair idea of what to expect.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Yep! No good options for the EV folks. Same thing happened in Skokie, IL last Winter. Lots of people had to have their Tesla's towed to other charge stations 20 to 30 miles away. Now Musk says he may stop using the 18650 cells in.his battery packs...

[Leo Enticknap]

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X is the approx. accident site. Assuming that you were coming south from Vegas, your only options are to backtrack to Nipton Road, and the cut across to the 95 to the 40, or head north from Baker through Death Valley (not fun in 120-130 middle of the day heat), and then back down onto the 395. Nipton Road is likely not possible for a big rig (hairpin turns, etc.): for everyone else, that route is a 150-mile, three-hour detour. The same likely applies to big rigs and the Death Valley route (though I don't know for sure, because I haven't driven that entire diversion route), and that's more like a 4-5 hour detour. Bringing this back to topic, if you're in an EV, you're in trouble: even if you charge up fully in Baker (and in a situation like this, there will be a long line to use the Tesla chargers there), it's likely 200 miles or 200-250 to the next public charger, depending on which diversion route you use. With a/c running and the battery capacity degraded by extremely hot weather, you'd be on the very edge of most EVs' realistic range.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Cops and truck drivers are in the same Union. So of course the cops let some of the truckers antics slide...

Have driven.that route many times, sometimes after Cinemacon to go visit friends in the L.A. area. There is almost always one big rig broke down or in.a pile up some where along the way. But between Salt Lake and Vegas everything is usually normal. The bad part about the 15 once you get in to CA, is there are almost no places to do a reroute. You are pretty much stuck there...

[Leo Enticknap]

In case anyone remains skeptical about claims made of the dangers of lithium ion batteries, this from the San Bernardino Sun:

Fire on 15 Freeway in Baker remains ‘volatile’ after lithium-ion battery blaze, CHP says

By Hunter Lee | hlee@scng.com
UPDATED: July 27, 2024 at 11:47 p.m.

The northbound 15 Freeway lanes in Baker remained closed on Saturday, July 27, after a semi-truck hauling a container of lithium-ion batteries overturned on Friday morning, blocking the route to Las Vegas, authorities said.

The truck overturned in the northbound lanes with the trailer carrying the batteries catching on fire after the crash, according to the San Bernardino County Fire Department. Authorities closed the north and southbound freeway lanes between Afton Canyon and Basin Road and called for a hazardous material response.

A Saturday update from the California Highway Patrol said northbound lanes were closed at Harvard Road, with southbound lanes open. Heavy traffic was reported on the eastbound 40 Freeway because of traffic being detoured from the 15.

Fires involving lithium-ion batteries risk the threat of a larger fire or explosion and require massive amounts of water to extinguish.

On Saturday morning, the fire department said the CHP for a time alternated the north and southbound flow on the southbound lanes to manage the heavy traffic build-up. At midday, the CHP in Barstow said reopening one lane of the northbound freeway did not seem likely anytime soon.

Multiple attempts were made to move the container from the freeway shoulder to open land using heavy equipment, including an excavator and a dozer, the fire department said. Ground improvements and grading were done to move the container to a safe area for long-term mitigation and cleanup.

“However, the container’s weight, exceeding 75,000 pounds, has made these efforts unsuccessful so far,” the department stated.

The department said it is working with other agencies and resources to arrange for additional heavy equipment for the removal of the container, “an effort that will continue throughout the day.”

The CHP said in their midday update: “Emergency crews on scene are still assessing the situation and evaluating options. The situation and fire remain volatile. The previous anticipated time of opening lanes will not be achievable.”

The fire department said: “The primary concern is the air quality due to the hazardous materials and chemicals involved. Air monitoring is assessing for hydrogen cyanide, chlorine, and sulfur dioxide. These chemicals pose significant health risks at elevated levels, with hydrogen cyanide and chlorine being particularly dangerous even at low concentrations.”

A supply stop was set up at the Clyde V Kane Rest Stop off the northbound 15, south of Afton Canyon Road to provide water to motorists stuck in traffic.

Authorities suggested drivers avoid northbound travel on the 15 and seek alternate routes through the 40 Freeway.

They also advised:

– Digital Mapping Systems: Be aware that alternative routes suggested by GPS and mapping systems may include dirt roads and trails not suitable for most vehicles.

– Unsuitable Terrain: These routes can lead to vehicles getting stuck, which complicates emergency efforts and diverts resources.

– Avoid Off-Road: If not equipped for off-road travel, avoid taking these alternative routes.

– Current Temperatures: Near Baker, temperatures are around 110°F.

– Emergency Crews: Our crews are contending with extreme heat during mitigation operations.

– Travel Advisory: Vehicles not already in traffic should avoid congested areas.

– Plan Ahead: Ensure you have adequate water and resources while traveling.

– Prepare: Plan your route ahead of time to avoid delays and stay safe.

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27xp-highway-fire-superJumbo.webp

Reported on the radio just now that the 15 fully reopened at 3.40a this morning, almost two full days after the accident. The bottom line is that these things are so dangerous that a single TEU container full of them can close the only arterial freeway that directly connects two major metros (LA and Vegas) for that long.

BTW, if the container and its contents really did weigh 75,000lb (about 37-38 tons), I'm wondering if the trailer was overloaded, if its tires were a bit worn, and that, in combination of the stretch of the freeway between Yermo and Baker being two lanes only and with some significant bends and gradients, caused it to come off the road. I've encountered big rigs doing 80-90 on that stretch (the CHP doesn't seem to care), and if something that heavy, with tires in poor condition and the road surface very hot took a bend too fast, the rest is history. The first photo does show the wreck on the apex of a bend, and no other vehicles appear, or are reported, to have been involved.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Yes, Hertz put them all on one lot not to far from me. That was a couple months ago, and most of them are still there. The 07 Hummer H3 came from Hertz car sales in Salt Lake City, and to be honest it was a very good deal. It only had about 3200 miles on it, and I only paid 58% of new.

[Leo Enticknap]

Plus Hertz flooded the market with 100,000 used, mainly low mileage Teslas, selling them for around half that of a new one.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

And Tesla sales are dropping rapidly, down 14% the 2nd Quarter of this year. I think people are getting fed up with both Elon AND his cars. Plus there are lots of other EV's on the market, close to 50, including Tesla, today.

https://fortune.com/2024/07/19/tesla...i-ford-rising/

[Leo Enticknap]

Yesterday evening I discovered, the hard way, another unintended consequence of the EV revolution.

Attempting to check in to a hotel, I found the entrance to the property blocked by a long line of cars - all of them electric. About 20 minutes of waiting and crawling later, I found out why: they were all queuing to use one of the five or so EV chargers that some bright spark (sorry!) had decided to locate at the entrance to the hotel's lot, such that anyone wanting simply to park at the hotel and check in cannot get past the line of cars waiting to charge in order to do so. Most of these vehicles were clearly not being driven by hotel guests: I would guess, because the hotel did some sort of lease/rent deal with the charger vendor, a condition of which was they had to allow non-hotel customers to use them.

Making all this worse was that the cords on the chargers were short enough that most of the drivers had to reverse into the charging spots in order to use them. A lot of these drivers clearly had little or no experience of backing into a parking spot, with the result that they had to make multiple attempts to line up, the queue behind them growing all the while.

You would have thought that the hotel's management would have anticipated this, and required that the chargers be put at the back of the building, as far away as possible from the main entrance.

As I am traveling on work and the hotel bill is being paid by the company, I feel uncomfortable naming the place on a public forum, at least without my boss's consent: but if I were there on my own dime, I would have no problem naming and shaming the joint. A quick look on Yelp and Tripadvisor reveals that I am by no means the first to have experienced this.

[Lyle Romer]

I saw some research company study that found that 44% of current EV owners were planning to go back to gas for their next vehicle.

[Leo Enticknap]

There seems to be an anti-natural gas movement gathering steam on the grounds that they produce pollutants that are harmful if inhaled. IMHO, that is worth a more serious look than the jurisdictions that are trying to ban them on global warming grounds: as Harold points out, you won't reduce emissions by getting rid of your gas stove and buying an electric one, if the electricity for the latter is supplied by a coal-burning power station that might be out of sight and out of mind.

[Harold Hallikainen]

Due to advances in semiconductors, I think DC to AC conversion is pretty efficient. Besides dealing with DC from solar panels, there are some very high power long distance DC transmission lines since DC passes current through the entire cross-section of the conductor instead of the concentration of the current near the surface of the conductor with AC. This results in lower losses for DC transmission with the same conductor size.

We have 3.3 kW of rooftop solar on our home. It is a line-tied micro-inverter system. Some months it produces more than our load, some less. Over a year, it averages 55% of our load. I hope to increase the number of panels some day. We have a lot of roof space still available.

We still have natural gas for heating (hot water, cooking, room heating). There was an interesting promotional piece in the latest bill stuffer. It said using natural gas for heating resulted in some percentage (I don't remember the number, maybe 30%) less CO2 emissions than electric heating. Though they are trying to promote natural gas and its image, I do think they are correct as long as any fossil fuel is used in electricity generation. Apparently gas fired power plants can have an efficiency of up to 60%. A gas water heater has an efficiency between 50% and 80% while electric water heaters have an efficiency of 70 to 95%. So, until we have almost no power generation by fossil fuels, I think home heating with natural gas still makes sense for now.