Interesting car rental (electric or dino juice?) experience

[Marcel Birgelen]

It's hard to get anything like a decent coverage map, but I found this "informative" tidbit:

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Source

This kind of infrastructure isn't cheap. It baffles the mind how some cities manage to have 20 to 30% of it inoperable in 2023. This certainly isn't a U.K. exclusive. For me, this is a clear sign we still haven't really figured out EVs.

As for driving your car in London: Don't... My last experience dates from 2019, but I doubt a lot has changed. Luckily, London was just a "side stop". But congestion charges, non-existent parking and if you actually find a spot, horrendous parking fees will make it a miserable experience, on purpose. But the same is true for many European cities. You don't want to drive your car through the center of e.g. Paris or Amsterdam either. One of the few big cities I still find pretty drive-able is Berlin, but things are changing there too. Most cities around here, including London, have very decent to excellent public transport though. The only U.S. city I've ever been to that had anything near excellent public transport was New York City. I can only imagine how it must feel being stuck without a car in some Inland Empire "shithole" like San Bernardino. (Sorry, Leo, didn't want to offend you, but I can somewhat relate because I had a project there for about a month or two a few years back. I've never been to Loma Linda, but I'm sure it must be the nice part of town. )

[Mike Blakesley]

This kind of infrastructure isn't cheap. It baffles the mind how some cities manage to have 20 to 30% of it inoperable in 2023.

Just because something isn't cheap doesn't mean it isn't cheaply made. You can look at the famous power switches on $65,000 NEC digital projectors for proof of that!

But I suppose part of the inoperability problem could be attributed to vandals or delusional people who are "against" EVs and think that eliminating charging stations will stop them from being made.

[Allan Young]

As for driving your car in London: Don't... My last experience dates from 2019, but I doubt a lot has changed. Luckily, London was just a "side stop". But congestion charges, non-existent parking and if you actually find a spot, horrendous parking fees will make it a miserable experience, on purpose.

I'd definitely avoid driving in London during the day due to the congestion charge and parking costs. Different matter in the evenings though. I regularly drive into the West End after 1800 when the congestion charge stops. There's plenty of free street parking available in the evenings too.

[Leo Enticknap]

Per Marcel's map, we're spending the first couple of days after arrival very close to Woking (which will include a half-day trip to Wimbledon), and after that going to relatives not far from Worthing, so maybe the EV would have worked after all! But during the second part of the trip we're going to Leicestershire and then Northumberland, where I don't expect to see much charging infrastructure. The Merton Park end of Wimbledon is the closest we'll get to Central London, and we'll have access to off-road parking there. So assuming that our rental car is compliant with this new ULEZ thing (surely Hertz wouldn't be renting them at Heathrow if it wasn't?), we shouldn't have a headache on the London driving score. Even when I lived in Wimbledon (from my birth until leaving for college in 1992), driving in central London was well known to be something you didn't do if you didn't have to, and the introduction of the "congestion charge" in the early '00s cemented that reputation. I didn't live anywhere near the south-east between then and emigrating to the USA in 2013 (Exeter, Plymouth, and finally York), but even driving into the south London 'burbs to visit my parents during that time was not something I looked forward to. Another challenge will be that according to relatives, there is now a 20mph limit on most inner London streets, that is enforced with zero tolerance by speed cameras all over the place. I'll really have to keep remembering that if I'm driving in light traffic. The lowest speed limit in these parts is 25, and roads with a limit below 35 are very unusual.

I can only imagine how it must feel being stuck without a car in some Inland Empire "shithole" like San Bernardino. (Sorry, Leo, didn't want to offend you, but I can somewhat relate because I had a project there for about a month or two a few years back. I've never been to Loma Linda, but I'm sure it must be the nice part of town. )

Known as San Bernaghetto in these parts, along with Fontucky and Rancho Cucamethlab. It's sad: SB never really recovered from the closure of an Air Force base in 1994, which by that time had become the main driver of the city's economy. Because most of the high skill / high value economic activity in the immediate area had already been established in nearby Redlands and Riverside, SB struggled to rebuild its economic base. Logistics and warehousing has been the main growth area since: situated at the intersection of two arterial freeways and two arterial railroads and with one of the country's largest cargo airports only 20 miles away (Ontario), it's ideally situated for that. But most of the jobs that generates are not highly skilled or paid, and that also makes it attractive for the illegal narcotics industry and all the crime that comes with it.

While some of the crime from SB spilled over into Colton (at least, the part of it north of the freeway), Loma Linda and Redlands have, until now at any rate, been regarded as pretty safe and reasonable cities. I suspect that LL has a certain amount of built in protection, because it has an international reputation as being an epicenter for the Seventh-day Adventist Church: the hospital and university it runs accounts for about 90% of the city's GDP. Around half the population are practicing Adventists, there are no bars and no liqour licenses are issued in the city (if you want a beer with your meal, you have to go to Redlands or Colton), and community cohesion is such that if you come to LL hoping to help yourself to a few catalytic converters, you are far more likely to be caught than you are in SB, and the local lowlife know it. But all that having been said, this happened in Redlands on Monday, just a few hours after my wife was in that store, buying back-to-school stuff for our little one! We also go to the Harkins in that mall as our first choice to see a movie, as it has the best presentation of any theater within an easy drive. But after seeing that, I'd be reluctant to go back, especially in the evening.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Leo,

At least you can use this trip to scout out the charge station situation in planning for the next trip...

[Leo Enticknap]

True, but that next trip likely won't be for another 3-5 years (the cost, and difficulty of syncing vacation time from two workplaces and a school, make it impossible to do this more often), by which time the landscape (on both sides of the Atlantic) will likely have changed significantly. The technology and politics around EVs are both developing rapidly. I suspect that by the back end of this decade, either the wholesale transition will be well underway, or there will be acceptance that wholesale transition is not viable, and that EVs won't work for all use cases. For that reason, we are going to try to keep running our current vehicles (a 2012 Civic and a 2018 HR-V) for another few years, until the situation is clearer as to whether the best bet would be to replace neither, either, or both with EVs.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

Leo, as a side note if you and your wife have some time, hop on the ferry and go check out the Isle of Man. It is VERY beautiful, and a ride on the Electric Railway from Douglas to Ramsey is very relaxing and scenic. Nobel Park in Douglas is the home of TT races as well. Oh, and if you do go, get some of the Manx Lobster if you can. It is the best!

Safe travels!!

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

True, but that next trip likely won't be for another 3-5 years (the cost, and difficulty of syncing vacation time from two workplaces and a school, make it impossible to do this more often), by which time the landscape (on both sides of the Atlantic) will likely have changed significantly. The technology and politics around EVs are both developing rapidly. I suspect that by the back end of this decade, either the wholesale transition will be well underway, or there will be acceptance that wholesale transition is not viable, and that EVs won't work for all use cases. For that reason, we are going to try to keep running our current vehicles (a 2012 Civic and a 2018 HR-V) for another few years, until the situation is clearer as to whether the best bet would be to replace neither, either, or both with EVs.

The main problem that exists is lack of lithium, and the mining of it which is almost ludricous.

Oops! And a shortage of charge stations.

[Leo Enticknap]

Intensive research and development efforts are going on to invent alternatives to lithium ion for EV batteries: one of the big unknowns is whether any will make it into mass production (as distinct from proof of concept in a lab), and if they do, how long that will take. The thermal runaway/fire risk of lithium ion is another big problem, and the main reason why EVs cost between 50% more and double to insure than their ICE-powered equivalents.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

There have been.so many "new design" batteries over the last 5 years and none have made it into a single car. Really makes me wonder if even a single new type will ever make it into an EV. There are huge lithium deposits in Nevada, Utah and also huge deposits in one of the North East States. But none of those States will allow it to be mined.

[John Eickhof]

There have been.so many "new design" batteries over the last 5 years and none have made it into a single car. Really makes me wonder if even a single new type will ever make it into an EV. There are huge lithium deposits in Nevada, Utah and also huge deposits in one of the North East States. But none of those States will allow it to be mined.

no thanks to ENVIRO-NAZIS and excessive GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS and GOVERNMENTS LOVE AFFAIR WITH CHINA...

[Leo Enticknap]

There are huge lithium deposits in Nevada, Utah and also huge deposits in one of the North East States. But none of those States will allow it to be mined.

One, on the Nevada/Oregon border, looks like it could well go ahead: the 9th Circuit has recently tossed objections from environmentalists. The environmentalists will likely try to persuade the SCOTUS to take the case, though, especially as it relates to the major questions doctrine (does the US Bureau of Land Management have the power to approve the mine without specific authorization from Congress?). That having been said, this proposed mine is on federal land and thus regulated directly by federal law: the legal situation is likely very different for proposed mines on state-owned or private land.

But whatever happens, I have a strong gut instinct that lithium ion is not the long term future of energy storage for EVs. Its inventors never imagined it powering anything bigger than a cellphone. There is the cost and environmental damage of mining the lithium (and the other minerals needed), the same for recycling at EOL, the relatively low lifetime of charge/discharge cycles, and finally and most importantly, a huge safety issue in the form of thermal runaway. I think of li-ion battery packs of the size found in an EV as similar to nuclear fission reactors: they need a cooling system (using both forced air and liquid, in the case of EVs) that simply has to work. If it craps out, you find yourself sitting in a mini-Hindenburg.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

no thanks to ENVIRO-NAZIS and excessive GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS and GOVERNMENTS LOVE AFFAIR WITH CHINA...

John,

What enviro Nazis? You mean the ones that look out for your well being so you don't end up contracting cancer or some other dibilitating disease? Look up the coal ash disaster that happened here in East Tennessee.

Enviro Nazi's, er I mean a Federal court just stopped an 80 mile railroad from being built to haul crude from eastern Utah to Salt Lake City. Their decision was based on tje poor record of a similar previous route that existed.

The only place with excessive Govt regulations I know of is California.

And please tell me who in the U.S. is in love with China. We are in the process of pulling all our high tech semiconductor companies, among others, out of China and bringing them back here. And China does not posses the current size CPU technology, not to mention that their economy is tanking.

[John Eickhof]

Mark, first, I don.t want ANYONE looking out for my well being... i am educated and capable to do that on my own....enviro nazis. dates back to the extreme environmentalist movement in the mid 70s, building moratoriums, restricted access to public lands, etc. I was there when hundreds of local residents like my family were told what we could or could not do, it forced them to move away so they could continue to do business or work their trades and they didn't prevent you or I from kidney failure did they? The biggest result of OVER REGULATION is high cost and excessive waste of resources, mining natural elements and minerals should be done wisely, but stopping all activities without using common sense will leave countries like COMMUNIST CHINA to ruin their land and exploit us. not a very prudent idea. And, California is the example that seems to set the pace for other radical states...look at your area before you try and compare to others...just my two cents worth. Now, to stay on topic... industrial grade batteries. are heavy duty and contain more dense electrolytes so they will put out more current for a longer time, however they are packaged different and will not last in a device for much longer than regular cells plus they are sold in bulk without fancy packaging. so leakage is still a factor. Im all for new formulations except not too fond of batteries that can spontaneously combust! even lead acid batteries can emit sulfuric acid so if they are not vented can de explosion hazards, so, hydrogen fuel cells seem to be a place to start...

[Frank Angel]

What I don't understand is, why every gas station doesn't simply install a few charging stations. It's not like they need to have the "Efuel" if you will, delivered....they all ready have it. How expensive could it be to put a plug with a meter and a card reader on a pole? Easy way for the individual owners to make extra money, and I can't believe that with how much of an erection the administration has for having every car in the country running electric by the time we can say Klaltu barada nickto, they wouldn't be overjoyed to give tax incentives for any gas station or business or municipality to to install chargers. And the Interstate has rest stops that have electricity -- perfect places just begging to have charging stations. Every city has street lights -- stick a charging station on every fifth street lamp pole. Getting them in place should be child's play -- the electric grid is all ready in place...what's the problem? If Starbucks can build entire restaurants on every corner of every city, municipalities should be able to stick a few chargers on their electric poles and in municipal parking lots. That can be done in lickity-split time and that will be the end of range anxiety in very short order. I am sure there was plenty of range anxiety when Ford rolled out the first Model Ts, but that was dealt with once entrepreneurs saw a way to make money pumping gas, and I would wager that getting enough gas stations built was a lot more of a challenge than hooking up a charger plug with a meter and credit card reader to a light pole.

Oh yeah, once big companies that have large parking lots for customers just sitting there not making any money, like Sears or Home Depot or big supermarkets, once they see they can make $$ by sticking a bunch of charges on their parking lot light poles, job done!